A Year of Resistance: Examining the Palestinian Struggle with Dr. Sara Masoud - Ep 163

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this is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan, Jo

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vonni, Shiloh, Monisha , and Mike

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Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about U.

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S.

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foreign policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war.

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I'm Henri.

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Thanks for joining us today.

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With me is my co host Jovanni.

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Jovanni, how are you doing,

Jovanni: 00:00:26

I'm doing well, Henri.

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How are you doing?

Henri: 00:00:28

I'm doing all right.

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Excited for this interview.

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October 7th marked the first anniversary of the Palestinian Holocaust.

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Israel's extreme reaction to October 7th has galvanized the world and

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created a sea shift in global public opinion against the Zionist state

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and solidarity with Palestine.

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This is the first genocide in history that is live streamed with the genociders

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posting their crimes on social media and Israeli leadership openly talking

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about their genocidal intents.

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No one with access to a smartphone can claim they don't know.

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Students, activists, and average people from all walks of life have

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mounted almost daily protests and demonstrations across the globe for

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ceasefire and justice for Palestinians.

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Even though most Western governments have taken repressive actions as

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criminalizing Palestinian advocacy.

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Yet many people refuse to be intimidated and continue to organize.

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One of these people are here with us today, Dr.

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Sarah Massoud.

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I had the opportunity to attend a film screening, she

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organized, followed by a vigil.

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At a nearby park.

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We'll talk about that in a minute.

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Let's introduce Dr.

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Massoud.

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She's an organizer with San Antonio Justice for Palestine

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and has been active there since she moved to San Antonio in 2018.

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She is an assistant professor at UT Health's San Antonio, where she does

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community engaged research about dementia.

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Masoud is also a faculty advisor for the Healthcare Workers for Palestinian

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Student Organizations at UTH San Antonio.

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She is from the Palestinian Diaspora and has visited Palestine twice in the last

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two years, before and after October 7th.

Jovanni: 00:02:17

Welcome to the show, Dr.

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Masoud.

Jovanni: 00:02:18

How are you doing today?

Sara Masoud: 00:02:19

I'm great.

Sara Masoud: 00:02:19

Thank you for having me.

Sara Masoud: 00:02:20

Really excited for our conversation.

Jovanni: 00:02:23

Yeah, thank you.

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It's been a year since the Israeli onslaught on Palestinians.

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Now it's extended to, Lebanon and there's no end in sight, right?

Jovanni: 00:02:33

I just keep escalating.

Jovanni: 00:02:34

Now, it looks like it's escalating towards Iran what are your reflections on that?

Sara Masoud: 00:02:40

I think my first reflection would be that has been a year since a

Sara Masoud: 00:02:45

significant escalation in their onslaught.

Sara Masoud: 00:02:48

This is not, new in some ways to the Palestinian experience

Sara Masoud: 00:02:51

and in many ways it's not new.

Sara Masoud: 00:02:54

There have been several sieges on Gaza.

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Since.

Sara Masoud: 00:02:58

The occupation began, even before 1948, but if we're starting time

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somewhere, as far as the establishment of the State of Israel and the

Sara Masoud: 00:03:07

Nakba, the great catastrophe.

Sara Masoud: 00:03:09

Since 2006, after the withdrawal of the Israeli settlements from Gaza,

Sara Masoud: 00:03:16

Gaza has remained under the violent oppression of the State of Israel.

Sara Masoud: 00:03:23

New in terms of the dynamics, the severity, the length of time, the live

Sara Masoud: 00:03:30

streaming, of the genocide, the world's consciousness of it, is new, but as far as

Sara Masoud: 00:03:38

the operation of genocide down a long line of different iterations of this genocide.

Sara Masoud: 00:03:45

My family is from the West Bank.

Sara Masoud: 00:03:47

We're from a village called Borca, north of Nablus.

Sara Masoud: 00:03:51

There are two Borcas and we're from the West Bank.

Sara Masoud: 00:03:53

It sits with us In a very heartbreaking way.

Jovanni: 00:03:57

Yeah, I think I remember one of the first, interactions I've had

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with you was you were showing us the different, clothings that distinguish

Jovanni: 00:04:04

different parts of Palestine.

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So for people not following, the situation in Palestine, can you give us a brief

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history of Palestinian Israeli relations?

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What is Israel?

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How did it start?

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How did it become one thing?

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What is Palestine?

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And I ask you that for a reason, because, I grew up in a Catholic church, right?

Jovanni: 00:04:22

And my mother was very involved in the Catholic Church and I

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was even a, a monanguillo in Spanish, or how do you say it?

Jovanni: 00:04:27

An altar boy in English, right?

Jovanni: 00:04:29

I was an altar boy.

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I was very involved as well growing up.

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The Sunday schools that had the big giant maps of the ancient world,

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and in the giant map, of the ancient world, they had cities

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like Damascus Corinthians, and they had Palestine there, in the

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classes, would talk about Palestine, and Israelites, interchangeably,

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like it was just one entity.

Jovanni: 00:04:51

I remember going to school.

Jovanni: 00:04:52

Can you give us, this brief history of what it means, those two, names.

Sara Masoud: 00:04:58

Yeah, I can give a brief history.

Sara Masoud: 00:05:00

It's so complex and I can point to some resources for anyone who wants

Sara Masoud: 00:05:04

to learn more in depth, because it is a beautiful history about the

Sara Masoud: 00:05:10

people of that region of the world.

Sara Masoud: 00:05:12

Palestine has existed as a place for an extremely long time, a place where people

Sara Masoud: 00:05:18

of all different faiths have lived.

Sara Masoud: 00:05:21

Palestine, is a predominantly Muslim history, but Christians and Jews have

Sara Masoud: 00:05:27

existed on the land of Palestine, for as long as those religions have existed.

Sara Masoud: 00:05:33

I think there is a deep tradition of multi faith, living cooperatively

Sara Masoud: 00:05:38

and in harmony with each other, the State of Israel a Zionist project,

Sara Masoud: 00:05:43

believing that the Jewish people have the to establish a state, for Jews.

Sara Masoud: 00:05:50

Israel a state that was established in the name of a homeland for the Jews.

Sara Masoud: 00:05:54

You often hear people say, Palestine was a land without a people, for a people

Sara Masoud: 00:05:58

without a land, which we know is not true.

Sara Masoud: 00:06:01

People of all faiths have existed there for as long as people have existed,

Sara Masoud: 00:06:05

Although the history of Zionism extends into the, 1800s, the creation of the

Sara Masoud: 00:06:11

State of Israel, happened, before World War II, but really went into effect after

Sara Masoud: 00:06:17

World War II, where the State of Israel was established, under the precipice

Sara Masoud: 00:06:21

of creating a place for Jews to live.

Sara Masoud: 00:06:25

And so what's happened now, what we understand is the state of Israel is a

Sara Masoud: 00:06:30

place that was violently established, in May 15th, 1948, through the

Sara Masoud: 00:06:36

violent displacement of indigenous people of that land, Palestinians.

Sara Masoud: 00:06:42

Who were displaced en masse to other parts, into the land that we know

Sara Masoud: 00:06:48

as Gaza and the West Bank, but also into Jordan Syria Lebanon and Iran.

Sara Masoud: 00:06:55

Massive displacement, also mass genocide of Palestinians, hundreds

Sara Masoud: 00:07:00

of thousands of Palestinians.

Sara Masoud: 00:07:03

Murdered through the establishment of the initial state of Israel in 1948, and

Sara Masoud: 00:07:08

since then Arabs who live in state of Israel live as second class citizens.

Sara Masoud: 00:07:16

Are not granted the same rights as, a Jew living in the state of Israel.

Sara Masoud: 00:07:21

The Palestinians who still live on what we know as Palestinian territories, the West

Sara Masoud: 00:07:26

Bank and Gaza, and even in Jerusalem, are living under, a different court of law.

Sara Masoud: 00:07:32

So they're tried under martial law, which is, Just to paint a very brief picture,

Sara Masoud: 00:07:37

this shows, the apartheid system that has gone, has calcified into place as the

Sara Masoud: 00:07:43

existence of Palestinians and Israelis.

Sara Masoud: 00:07:46

When people try to paint this as a religious conflict.

Sara Masoud: 00:07:50

It really is not necessarily true.

Sara Masoud: 00:07:53

Judaism plays a role in the mission of the State of Israel, but the

Sara Masoud: 00:07:59

idea that Muslims and Jews refuse to cohabitate is simply false.

Sara Masoud: 00:08:04

Many Jews will tell you that the State of Israel doesn't represent Jewish values.

Sara Masoud: 00:08:09

The State of Israel is an anti Semitic project.

Sara Masoud: 00:08:13

If you trace back the history of Zionism, the first to, dissent and

Sara Masoud: 00:08:17

oppose the establishment of the State of Israel, it was anti Zionist Jews,

Sara Masoud: 00:08:22

who were saying that, we can't, steal land and commit genocide in the name

Sara Masoud: 00:08:27

of the establishment of an ethnostate.

Sara Masoud: 00:08:29

I'll just pause there and see if you feel like that was sufficient, Jovanni.

Sara Masoud: 00:08:32

It's like a brief primer.

Jovanni: 00:08:35

Yes, my understanding, is, it started as a violent, project that started

Jovanni: 00:08:39

in England, in the UK, and imposed on the people of the region, you see the mass

Jovanni: 00:08:44

displacement of about 700, 000 people, 15, 000 people killed, people being

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spread out, and the ideology of Zionism.

Jovanni: 00:08:53

A guest here, a few episodes ago, Israeli Canadian and she, grew up in

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Israel, it took her, coming to Canada to see Palestinians, actually, one of the

Jovanni: 00:09:04

things she said in our interview is that Judaism is a 4, 000 year old religion.

Jovanni: 00:09:10

And Zionists just hijacked it, which is almost it's not

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even 200 years old ideology.

Jovanni: 00:09:16

I've heard Israel described as a modern state with an

Jovanni: 00:09:19

18th or 19th century ideology.

Jovanni: 00:09:22

Go ahead, Henri, you want to jump in?

Henri: 00:09:24

I've been spending a lot of time lately reading about Zionism how it

Henri: 00:09:29

began, how it spread, you referenced this just a minute ago about how folks

Henri: 00:09:34

in the United Kingdom used their own.

Henri: 00:09:38

Native anti Semitism, to provide backing for this creation of this land, these

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hate filled people that hated ethnic Jews for all their own reasons, use

Henri: 00:09:47

that hatred to create an ethnostate, a state that by definition, by creation,

Henri: 00:09:53

cannot create equality for Palestinians because the entire basis of the state

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rests on the notion that Palestinians are lesser than, that they use different

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roads, that they have to go through umpteen checkpoints to and from work and

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lots of other places, that to actually access medical care or an education

Henri: 00:10:13

is entirely on the Zionist state.

Henri: 00:10:16

It's that they don't have any real control over the state.

Henri: 00:10:19

Over their lives in that way, the one thing I did want to mention right now, and

Henri: 00:10:22

it'll make sense once I explain it that I've been reading this new book called

Henri: 00:10:27

Visualizing Palestine, and it's so great.

Henri: 00:10:30

I see Sarah nodding.

Henri: 00:10:31

It's helped me so much because I really am a visual learner.

Henri: 00:10:34

It's interesting to see these ideas take forms on the map.

Henri: 00:10:38

Okay, can you guys see it?

Henri: 00:10:41

So we have what was 1918 Palestine, and this is where the black areas are

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where Zionists had already come and trying to force people off their land.

Henri: 00:10:51

This is 1947, just prior to the Nakba, and it shows where they had

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taken more space we then get to 1960.

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Modern Gaza is right down here and then over here where the West Bank would be.

Henri: 00:11:04

But you see just swallowing up.

Henri: 00:11:06

All the available place and this is one of the things that angered me so much the use

Henri: 00:11:11

of the word Arab to describe Palestinians as opposed to Palestinian Sarah, you were

Henri: 00:11:17

talking about, land for a people without a land, and that wasn't true in the least.

Henri: 00:11:21

The desert blooming was already blooming.

Henri: 00:11:24

There had been Palestinians living there for thousands of years.

Henri: 00:11:28

Anyways, I wanted to throw out there about, Visualizing Palestine, it's

Henri: 00:11:32

been, such a great, help for me in trying to learn that kind of stuff.

Henri: 00:11:35

If anybody is listening and they're really new to the subject, it's

Henri: 00:11:39

a really great book to pick up.

Henri: 00:11:40

Jovanni, jump back in here,

Jovanni: 00:11:42

sarah, one of the things that was not talked about, I will argue the

Jovanni: 00:11:45

term ethnostate, is that a correct term given that Judaism is a religion, not an

Jovanni: 00:11:52

ethnicity, by calling it an ethno state of, and pretty much what it was European

Jovanni: 00:11:57

Jews that came to colonize the area.

Jovanni: 00:12:01

But what's neglected here the Palestinian Jews that were already

Jovanni: 00:12:03

living there there were Palestinian Jews living there already.

Jovanni: 00:12:06

A lot of the Arab Jews that make up Israel today are from the area, from,

Jovanni: 00:12:11

Yemen, Jewish Yemenis, from Iraq.

Jovanni: 00:12:15

Iraq had one of the largest Jewish population in the Gulf.

Jovanni: 00:12:19

The Syrian Jews.

Jovanni: 00:12:20

So they were already living there before the European Zionists, to the area.

Jovanni: 00:12:25

Expand on that?

Sara Masoud: 00:12:26

I do think that you, articulated it well.

Sara Masoud: 00:12:30

The narrative that, there were no Jews and there were no people on this land.

Sara Masoud: 00:12:36

A very convenient narrative.

Sara Masoud: 00:12:37

We've heard it used before.

Sara Masoud: 00:12:39

We talk about this land as something that was discovered and very conveniently

Sara Masoud: 00:12:44

eliminate thousands of years of history of people who were here before.

Sara Masoud: 00:12:48

So I think it's just a very convenient narrative.

Sara Masoud: 00:12:50

I think Henry.

Sara Masoud: 00:12:52

Or whichever one of you shared about the Israeli who saw Palestinians for the first

Sara Masoud: 00:12:58

time, this is something I've heard of.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:01

There's a brainwashing of Israelis, second third, fourth generation who

Sara Masoud: 00:13:06

are taught not to see Palestinians.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:10

I'm not sure what they think the wall does, what they think those caterpillar

Sara Masoud: 00:13:16

machines are doing, but there is this disconnect in my experience, I went to the

Sara Masoud: 00:13:22

48 lands for the first time in my life, so I had been to Palestine, I had never

Sara Masoud: 00:13:27

crossed over into what is called Israel, and so that was the first time I had

Sara Masoud: 00:13:31

ever been able to do that was last year.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:35

For people who are new to this topic what it looks like to be a

Sara Masoud: 00:13:38

Palestinian trying to navigate Israel.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:42

I have U.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:43

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:43

citizenship.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:44

My father, though, he has a Palestinian ID and is a U.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:48

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:48

citizen.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:49

So our family, although we were able to stay, my grandma had been displaced.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:54

She was nine years old when Israel was created.

Sara Masoud: 00:13:57

She was displaced to our village where she married my grandfather.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:00

We have lineage in our village.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:02

On my paternal side, my family was economically displaced as a

Sara Masoud: 00:14:07

consequence of the, occupation and, the lack of resources, the

Sara Masoud: 00:14:12

lack of ability to earn a living.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:15

Economic displacement to Kuwait.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:17

My father mostly grew up in Kuwait my father's a Palestinian, and we decided

Sara Masoud: 00:14:22

to try to go to 48 lands for the first time, and we were going to Enter

Sara Masoud: 00:14:27

through Jerusalem and travel through, 48 as a Palestinian, my, Father had

Sara Masoud: 00:14:32

to enter from a different checkpoint.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:35

We have U.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:35

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:36

citizenship, but no Palestinian IDs.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:38

My father has U.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:39

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:40

citizenship, but does have a Palestinian ID.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:42

That difference meant my father had to travel through a different checkpoint.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:47

We would have to drop him off.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:49

He would go by foot.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:50

We would stay in our cab.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:52

We were able to cross over after, them looking over our visas, looking over IDs.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:56

A humiliating process just as a U.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:58

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:14:58

citizen with Palestinian descent.

Sara Masoud: 00:15:01

My father has to go through a much more taxing process.

Sara Masoud: 00:15:05

So we get to the other side before him, we have to drive all the way to the

Sara Masoud: 00:15:09

Palestinian entry point to pick him up.

Sara Masoud: 00:15:13

And then it's a series of mistreatment, not only from the soldiers, but from the

Sara Masoud: 00:15:20

Israelis themselves, who hate Palestinians and view us as The enemy, even though, we

Sara Masoud: 00:15:28

have ancestral ties to the land, we were in my grandmother's hometown that she

Sara Masoud: 00:15:32

was displaced from as a nine year old.

Sara Masoud: 00:15:35

And that is where Israelis would spit at our feet and make fun of us.

Sara Masoud: 00:15:40

We're just really antagonistic.

Sara Masoud: 00:15:42

And you have all these indicators of, as an American who doesn't really

Sara Masoud: 00:15:47

understand the history of this land, the ignorance of, the Western perspective

Sara Masoud: 00:15:53

that's been fed a lot of propaganda, if you were to go to Palestine, you would

Sara Masoud: 00:15:59

potentially feel uncomfortable, there's all these signs that the Israelis put

Sara Masoud: 00:16:04

up caution, to make it seem like there are savages living in the West Bank.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:10

You have, all the indicators of prosperity when you enter 48 lands.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:15

They're really nice paved roads.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:18

You can see the infrastructure even the trash cans look cleaner.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:22

You don't smell the garbage trucks that are driving up hills.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:26

The gas smells different.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:27

It looks more westernized.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:29

I can see how this lie just continues to perpetuate of the Palestinians who

Sara Masoud: 00:16:34

are these primitive savages, who just are constantly erupting in random

Sara Masoud: 00:16:40

acts of violence, rather than it being tethered into a narrative that should

Sara Masoud: 00:16:45

be told of like land theft and, the structural violence of the occupation.

Sara Masoud: 00:16:51

So we managed to, my father for the first time in his life, at 61 years old, was

Sara Masoud: 00:16:56

able to swim in the oceans of Palestine for the first time ever on that trip.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:03

This surreal.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:05

Experience that we had.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:06

The last thing I'll say, because piggybacking off what Henry said and what

Sara Masoud: 00:17:10

you shared, you spoke with an Israeli who moved to Canada and he was like, I'm

Sara Masoud: 00:17:16

seeing Palestinians for the first time.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:18

And we're hearing this more and more from Israelis, third, fourth

Sara Masoud: 00:17:23

generation Israelis who are relating to it the way we relate to being born.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:28

On U.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:28

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:28

land this was violently stolen and it's our obligation to

Sara Masoud: 00:17:32

relate to it in a certain way.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:34

As Palestinians, how do we relate to Israelis who were born in the state

Sara Masoud: 00:17:39

of Israel, who are not necessarily representative, they're different from the

Sara Masoud: 00:17:43

settlers who moved there to steal land.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:46

This is where they were born, this is what they know, and what is their obligation

Sara Masoud: 00:17:50

in the fight to, free Palestine, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:17:53

So an interesting period of time.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:55

I wanted to comment on what you all shared.

Sara Masoud: 00:17:57

Yeah, I don't know if you have anything to add to that.

Jovanni: 00:17:59

One of she's working on her doctorate's degree and that's

Jovanni: 00:18:03

what she's talking about in her dissertation how you, Invisibilize

Jovanni: 00:18:06

people, we have a common friend from the same organization he gives a story.

Jovanni: 00:18:10

He was deployed to Iraq during the height of the war the invasion.

Jovanni: 00:18:14

He was a truck driver.

Jovanni: 00:18:15

Part of what we call the pack, he tells a story that he arrived to a camp with

Jovanni: 00:18:19

the log pack, with the supplies got there late at night, the next morning, they

Jovanni: 00:18:23

were supposed to go to the next camp, the supplies, and then go on to the next

Jovanni: 00:18:26

camp, he slept in his truck, and what woke him up was sounds Of a guy, grunting,

Jovanni: 00:18:32

grunting outside, right?

Jovanni: 00:18:34

Near his truck.

Jovanni: 00:18:35

He looks out the window and he recognized one of them who

Jovanni: 00:18:39

went to boot camp with him.

Jovanni: 00:18:40

He was a Marine.

Jovanni: 00:18:42

He went to boot camp with them.

Jovanni: 00:18:44

And they, hey, so and how you doing?

Jovanni: 00:18:45

Are you here too?

Jovanni: 00:18:46

And start talking, catch up, yeah, talk for a good few minutes, then he had to

Jovanni: 00:18:50

go because he had to deliver his supplies to the next base, to the next farm.

Jovanni: 00:18:53

The story that as he was driving away and he was moving and just suddenly hit

Jovanni: 00:18:57

him, that his friend and the other guys there, were beating up an Iraqi guy.

Jovanni: 00:19:03

All right, they're beating up an Iraqi guy, but the moment he didn't see the

Jovanni: 00:19:06

Iraqi person, he just saw his friend there and he just started, having a conversation

Jovanni: 00:19:10

and to him, the Iraqi person that was getting beat up was invisible to him.

Jovanni: 00:19:15

You have anything to add to that, Henri?

Henri: 00:19:17

I didn't have any similar experience like that, but the ease that

Henri: 00:19:22

which dehumanization props in for folks in those situations, I did two tours in Iraq.

Henri: 00:19:28

In my second tour, I was in Western Iraq, in Al Anbar, where, based upon how the U.

Henri: 00:19:36

S.

Henri: 00:19:36

military had divided up the branches for the occupation of

Henri: 00:19:40

Iraq, it was the Marine Corps.

Henri: 00:19:42

The Marine Corps was in charge of that whole section of Iraq, I'm a soldier, I

Henri: 00:19:46

was an MP, and my MP squad got attached to a battalion of Marines, we didn't have

Henri: 00:19:52

to act like Marines or do Marine specific missions we mostly did our own thing.

Henri: 00:19:58

But you could see it, and it was a quiet time.

Henri: 00:20:01

There wasn't a whole lot of bad stuff going on, but before we had gotten there,

Henri: 00:20:04

I got there in mid 07 after Petraeus, shortly after the surge, and after David

Henri: 00:20:13

Petraeus had met with the Sunnis, and there had been that reduction of violence.

Henri: 00:20:19

But before I had gotten there, and you could tell this by the people that we

Henri: 00:20:21

talked to, the Marines had just pounded.

Henri: 00:20:25

Those areas, had inundated people with patrols airstrikes and flyovers.

Henri: 00:20:30

Even talking to the Iraqi police even with no combat, nobody's getting hurt

Henri: 00:20:35

or anything, the Marines are still.

Henri: 00:20:37

Driving everyone insane one thing I remember and it was weird was

Henri: 00:20:41

we helped them participate in the census of a particular area

Henri: 00:20:45

and so that meant that.

Henri: 00:20:47

5 of us, it was myself, the 1 soldier, and then 4 other Marines, we went from

Henri: 00:20:52

house to house in a specific section, it was all divided by, like we would

Henri: 00:20:56

here in the United States, divided up into zip codes and particular parts it

Henri: 00:21:00

got to me after a while, we're going to all these people's homes, and we

Henri: 00:21:03

ask them how many people are there, and I'm like, why is that important?

Henri: 00:21:07

Why is it important that you know exactly how many people are around, and

Henri: 00:21:12

how old the kids are, especially when you're dealing with military age males?

Henri: 00:21:17

And it was very easy because at the time I was dealing with a lot of physical pain.

Henri: 00:21:22

I had a whole bunch of health issues surviving right then meant

Henri: 00:21:25

I wasn't giving empathy to anybody.

Henri: 00:21:27

I didn't have empathy to give to anybody.

Henri: 00:21:30

That's not an excuse, but Looking back on it, and especially with people's homes

Henri: 00:21:35

and the way that the Marines would treat the inside courtyard where people live

Henri: 00:21:39

for those folks, that was a sacred space.

Henri: 00:21:42

It was a space for family.

Henri: 00:21:44

Women didn't have to wear their headdresses because it was part of their

Henri: 00:21:47

home and then the Marines would come, snipers up high Looking down into places,

Henri: 00:21:53

destroying their privacy, there was so much that I did that I shifted down and

Henri: 00:21:58

said I can't, because I was in a lot of pain, I don't know how to humanize

Henri: 00:22:01

everybody because I'm having to fight so hard to survive, even though, there

Henri: 00:22:06

wasn't active fighting nearby, those people had been Obliterated emotionally

Henri: 00:22:13

and psychologically by the Marines being there Jovanni, jump in here, man.

Jovanni: 00:22:18

I don't know what we say in military age, man.

Jovanni: 00:22:20

I know that Obama designated a military age man, I think it was 12 or 13

Jovanni: 00:22:24

years old and to, something like that.

Henri: 00:22:26

Earlier, Sarah, you and I, were talking a little bit about Fallujah.

Henri: 00:22:30

When the two battles of Fallujah happened and the families were having

Henri: 00:22:35

to separate themselves from military aged males, which meant leaving behind

Henri: 00:22:41

a huge chunk of your family because they want to make sure that they're

Henri: 00:22:45

not letting any of the insurgents out.

Henri: 00:22:47

So all the women and kids get to leave.

Henri: 00:22:49

They don't know what's still happening in the city, and then you have people,

Henri: 00:22:53

those guys who probably have done nothing wrong of any sort, and yet they're stuck

Henri: 00:22:59

there because they fit into the bad guy, the terrorist paradigm Jovanni, go ahead.

Jovanni: 00:23:05

You want to say something, Sarah?

Sara Masoud: 00:23:07

No, I resonant with what we've seen since October 7th

Sara Masoud: 00:23:12

with the talking points around, Any Palestinian child will one

Sara Masoud: 00:23:18

day become a Hamas fighter, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:23:20

And it's first of all, that's not necessarily true.

Sara Masoud: 00:23:25

If your aim is to eliminate Hamas, at the time of this interview, we're

Sara Masoud: 00:23:29

talking the day after they killed the top leader of Hamas, yahya Sinwar.

Sara Masoud: 00:23:36

The genocide continues, the airstrikes are still happening.

Sara Masoud: 00:23:40

The ground invasions are still active.

Sara Masoud: 00:23:43

These narratives of every Palestinian boy will become a Hamas fighter one day.

Sara Masoud: 00:23:49

So we have, we're justified in killing them, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:23:52

So it's just The same propaganda you hear in every war machine that is

Sara Masoud: 00:23:57

at the end of the day, land theft.

Sara Masoud: 00:23:59

It's to expand and conquer land, even when you've killed leader of

Sara Masoud: 00:24:05

Hamas, Netanyahu announced they have plans to slow down this operation, in

Sara Masoud: 00:24:10

fact, Jovanni opened up by saying it continues to expand even further, these

Sara Masoud: 00:24:14

are all narratives that justify that.

Jovanni: 00:24:16

The key point here is for, every American to know.

Jovanni: 00:24:20

That Israel doesn't have the ability on its own to continue this for a year.

Jovanni: 00:24:27

Israel's military is equipped to do quick wars, not last as

Jovanni: 00:24:30

long, probably a month's worth.

Jovanni: 00:24:32

They've lasted over a year, and we're talking about a population of about six

Jovanni: 00:24:37

million, Israelis, the reason they've been able to continue and sustain

Jovanni: 00:24:42

this level of violence for this period of time because of the unconditional

Jovanni: 00:24:46

support that the United States and its Western allies give to Israel.

Jovanni: 00:24:51

The United States does, delivery of munitions.

Jovanni: 00:24:54

Because Israel runs out of munitions.

Jovanni: 00:24:56

The second supporter, militarily as far as, giving munitions is Germany.

Jovanni: 00:25:01

And Germany is followed by, either Italy or the UK.

Jovanni: 00:25:05

The reason Israel is able to sustain this level of life for this period of

Jovanni: 00:25:09

long time is they're able to expand like the way they're doing is because

Jovanni: 00:25:13

active support of the West, without the Western support, Israel wouldn't be able

Jovanni: 00:25:19

to do that the Palestinians are not only fighting the resisting the Israelis,

Jovanni: 00:25:23

the Americans, the British, the Germans, the Spaniards, the Italians, and their

Jovanni: 00:25:27

own, Arab brothers around, surrounded by collaborators, comprador governments

Jovanni: 00:25:32

in the Gulf States rhetorically say they support the Palestinians, but

Jovanni: 00:25:35

their actions say something different.

Jovanni: 00:25:37

The only, entities sharing blood with the Palestinians, which is the Syrians the

Jovanni: 00:25:43

Lebanese, the Yemenis, Iranians, right?

Jovanni: 00:25:47

They're malign entities.

Jovanni: 00:25:48

They're malign entities in the mainstream media, they're the worst of the worst

Jovanni: 00:25:53

In the mainstream media in the West keep in mind the West is the ones

Jovanni: 00:25:56

facilitating and supporting this, right?

Jovanni: 00:25:57

But yet these entities that I just mentioned, they're the worst of the worst.

Jovanni: 00:26:00

I forgot the Iraqi militias.

Jovanni: 00:26:02

They're the worst of the worst.

Jovanni: 00:26:03

They're all terrorists, but if you look at, Israel the International Criminal

Jovanni: 00:26:08

Court of Justice, designated Israel.

Jovanni: 00:26:11

As committed, genocide, I think it was the South African complaint that South

Jovanni: 00:26:15

Africa put on Israel that they've been committing genocide according to the

Jovanni: 00:26:22

Convention Against Genocide of 1948, the international community, the world

Jovanni: 00:26:28

governments, they're supposed to stop the committing of genocide, before it happens.

Jovanni: 00:26:32

And if it's actively happening, they're supposed to get involved, they're

Jovanni: 00:26:35

supposed to intervene, to end it, so now these Milan states, not all of

Jovanni: 00:26:40

them are states, like two or three of them are states, but entities.

Jovanni: 00:26:43

They're doing what they're supposed to do in accordance to

Jovanni: 00:26:45

the Convention against Genocide, but then they're maligned for it.

Jovanni: 00:26:49

They're called terrorists for doing so.

Sara Masoud: 00:26:51

I think people are learning a hard lesson that these,

Sara Masoud: 00:26:55

international organizations that are supposedly there to protect

Sara Masoud: 00:27:01

the people of the world are really.

Sara Masoud: 00:27:03

In line with Western interests, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:27:06

What relevance does the ICJ ruling that Israel is likely committing

Sara Masoud: 00:27:11

a genocide, which we're like, yes, obviously, they're committing a

Sara Masoud: 00:27:13

genocide, what is the consequence, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:27:16

Like you said, we're still fueling and backing and I guess that brings

Sara Masoud: 00:27:21

us to the more local level and how you started this conversation,

Sara Masoud: 00:27:25

which is we had this vigil, we had a screening on October 6, 2024, followed

Sara Masoud: 00:27:31

by a silent procession and a vigil.

Sara Masoud: 00:27:34

And then the next day, Between the banner drops and the student organizations here

Sara Masoud: 00:27:39

in San Antonio, I often go back and forth like many of us, who have we're a year

Sara Masoud: 00:27:45

in and it's just feeling worse than ever.

Sara Masoud: 00:27:48

There's this fatigue and resignation new things can be said that haven't

Sara Masoud: 00:27:52

already been said, what levers can be pulled that haven't been pulled.

Sara Masoud: 00:27:57

We had such an active fight at the local level to push for a

Sara Masoud: 00:28:01

ceasefire, which is ultimately a symbolic gesture in and of itself.

Sara Masoud: 00:28:06

We never had any misgivings that, Ron Nirenberg of San Antonio declaring

Sara Masoud: 00:28:10

a ceasefire would mean that Biden would stop arming Israel, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:28:15

We knew that it wasn't that, but what we were fighting for was more in line with

Sara Masoud: 00:28:19

our understanding that as people of the United States, it is our responsibility

Sara Masoud: 00:28:25

to build power wherever we can.

Sara Masoud: 00:28:29

And I think if we were able to move forward a ceasefire resolution, other

Sara Masoud: 00:28:33

cities could have, learned from that model, learned from our approach.

Sara Masoud: 00:28:36

We're the 7th largest city in the United States.

Sara Masoud: 00:28:38

With enough power, we could have maybe seen more pressure on the

Sara Masoud: 00:28:43

Biden administration to stop fueling and funding this genocide.

Sara Masoud: 00:28:48

And so that brings us a year later, as we're looking around

Sara Masoud: 00:28:51

and being like, what's left to do?

Sara Masoud: 00:28:54

What is our obligation?

Sara Masoud: 00:28:55

Constantly having to reorient yourself that, one, Palestinians

Sara Masoud: 00:29:00

and Palestine will free Palestine.

Sara Masoud: 00:29:02

It is not going to be freed by those of us, in the heart of the U.

Sara Masoud: 00:29:06

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:29:06

Empire.

Sara Masoud: 00:29:07

Palestine will free herself and our obligation Is to deconstruct

Sara Masoud: 00:29:13

these forces of power and the backing to the best of our ability.

Sara Masoud: 00:29:17

So really leaning into now at the local level, we're trying to lean into how

Sara Masoud: 00:29:22

can we build power, ongoing commitments One of the positive outcomes, it's

Sara Masoud: 00:29:29

hard to say that, because the cost the price tag of this has been the

Sara Masoud: 00:29:33

genocide the Lancet report estimates, back in July, 186, 000 deaths,

Sara Masoud: 00:29:38

we have the Ministry of Health in Gaza reporting 42, 600 today.

Sara Masoud: 00:29:44

But really, the estimates are up to 200, 000 deaths, what are the health

Sara Masoud: 00:29:50

consequences long term of the people who are going to die from, the chemicals, the

Sara Masoud: 00:29:54

PTSD, the lack of health infrastructure, we're looking at a massive genocide.

Jovanni: 00:30:01

I'm sorry, Sarah, just to put things into perspective, right?

Jovanni: 00:30:04

200, 000 people out of a population of 2.

Jovanni: 00:30:08

2 million.

Jovanni: 00:30:09

That's almost the size of San Antonio.

Jovanni: 00:30:12

Yes.

Jovanni: 00:30:13

That's 200, 000 San Antonians just perishing.

Jovanni: 00:30:17

That's bigger than a lot of towns in the United States, go ahead.

Sara Masoud: 00:30:21

Is interesting because people are celebrating the martyrdom

Sara Masoud: 00:30:25

of Sanwar, and it's every Palestinian is Sanwar, every martyr should

Sara Masoud: 00:30:31

hold that much importance, every single person who has been killed

Sara Masoud: 00:30:36

in the name of the establishment of this state should be celebrated.

Sara Masoud: 00:30:41

Our function, at the local level, we've, as a Palestinian, it's been really hard.

Sara Masoud: 00:30:47

I've had many moments over the last year of, deep depression.

Sara Masoud: 00:30:51

At the personal level, I had to start antidepressants this year

Sara Masoud: 00:30:54

for the 1st time in my life.

Sara Masoud: 00:30:56

There is part of the experience Being in the U.

Sara Masoud: 00:30:59

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:30:59

and feeling so ill equipped and unable to stop this genocide that you

Sara Masoud: 00:31:04

have to do this constant reminder.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:06

And that's where people like you come in, Jovanni.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:08

That's where people like Judith Norman, the folks of San Antonio were.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:13

We can't stop building power and we can't stop leveraging

Sara Masoud: 00:31:17

that power whenever we can.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:19

That's where we said, we're coming up on election season and I have

Sara Masoud: 00:31:22

no misgivings about the power of an individual person's vote.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:26

That is so far beyond what I think.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:30

Will be what leads to a free Palestine.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:32

And so really trying to relate to these moments as opportunities

Sara Masoud: 00:31:37

to build community power and more leverage against these structures.

Sara Masoud: 00:31:41

So leaning into BDS, the boycott, divestments and sanctions movement,

Sara Masoud: 00:31:46

local organizers trying to dismantle, Valero and Caterpillar, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:31:52

Valero are the primary, if not the only provider of the form of jet

Sara Masoud: 00:31:58

fuel that is used in the aircraft carriers that are dropping the bombs,

Sara Masoud: 00:32:03

so we do have our role.

Sara Masoud: 00:32:06

In the liberation of Palestine, at the local level in San Antonio too.

Sara Masoud: 00:32:10

So I just wanted to make sure that was acknowledged in this conversation too.

Jovanni: 00:32:14

Absolutely, which goes back to what we said earlier that without

Jovanni: 00:32:19

the active support, the financial, political, economic, military

Jovanni: 00:32:24

support, that the United States gives Israel, Israel won't be able to carry

Jovanni: 00:32:29

out what it's carrying right now.

Jovanni: 00:32:29

Netanyahu comes to, Washington.

Jovanni: 00:32:32

Gives a speech and he's treated as Emperor Bibi, it's a bipartisan thing

Jovanni: 00:32:36

too because, we're usually these two parties at each other's throat.

Jovanni: 00:32:40

But Bibi shows up and it's like the second or third time.

Jovanni: 00:32:43

He shows up and he's standing ovations by both parts.

Jovanni: 00:32:46

So there's something that people need to realize as well

Jovanni: 00:32:49

everyone's in cahoots with this.

Jovanni: 00:32:50

AOC's in cahoots with this.

Jovanni: 00:32:52

Don't be fooled, I remember Malcolm X said be careful what the media says, it'll make

Jovanni: 00:32:56

you hate the person who you're supposed to love and love who you're supposed to hate,

Sara Masoud: 00:33:00

yeah, the propaganda machine, so powerful.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:03

In 2021, we saw a shift in the way people, in the United States, saw Palestine.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:10

We saw the evictions, of Sheikh Jarrah, in East Jerusalem, where

Sara Masoud: 00:33:16

people were being forcibly displaced from their homes and vocally resisted.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:21

That resulted in a series of protests.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:24

You were there right alongside us at that protest, Jovanni, here in

Sara Masoud: 00:33:27

San Antonio it was coming off of the murder of George Floyd, this increased

Sara Masoud: 00:33:32

political consciousness in the U.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:34

S.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:34

that was holding liberals to account for their support, of the

Sara Masoud: 00:33:39

genocidal state of Israel and people started drawing these connections.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:43

And then you have 2023 with the October 7th resistance.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:48

Like many Palestinians, so much of last year was wasted

Sara Masoud: 00:33:52

breath on condemning Hamas.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:54

Now if somebody's condemning Hamas at this point, you roll your eyes at them.

Sara Masoud: 00:33:58

We shouldn't necessarily dismiss.

Sara Masoud: 00:34:01

The perspectives of the people of Palestine who have suffered after the

Sara Masoud: 00:34:06

resistance of October 7th, but we have to reorient ourselves that Hamas wouldn't

Sara Masoud: 00:34:11

exist and wouldn't have to resist if the state of Israel didn't first create

Sara Masoud: 00:34:17

Hamas and then create the conditions under which resistance was a necessity.

Sara Masoud: 00:34:23

So I think when we're talking about Palestine with people who are

Sara Masoud: 00:34:26

using these, distracting arguments of oh, so you support what Hamas

Sara Masoud: 00:34:31

did on October 7th, no, I don't.

Sara Masoud: 00:34:34

And we saw the Ta Nehisi Coates interviews, right?

Sara Masoud: 00:34:38

It doesn't matter what I think about Hamas because I don't support genocide.

Sara Masoud: 00:34:42

Do you support genocide and reorienting people to what this really is?

Sara Masoud: 00:34:47

It's a genocidal project.

Sara Masoud: 00:34:50

Henri, did you want to say something to that?

Henri: 00:34:52

Been enjoying the mass media doing backflips and

Henri: 00:34:57

things about that whole process.

Henri: 00:34:59

Ta Nehisi was his book coming out at the time that it did, and how everybody

Henri: 00:35:03

responded to it, has created a better understanding at a mainstream level

Henri: 00:35:09

people throwing out don't you believe that Israel has the right to exist?

Henri: 00:35:13

I remember hearing what he said no state.

Henri: 00:35:16

Exists because of individual or group rights.

Henri: 00:35:19

States exist through violence.

Henri: 00:35:21

That is how they maintain their hegemony over their borders and relationships

Henri: 00:35:24

with other folks to make it seem like it's anything else is just a fantasy.

Henri: 00:35:29

It's just an entire fantasy, and going back to what Jovanni said, that

Henri: 00:35:33

quote from Malcolm X about learning to love who you hate, and hate who you

Henri: 00:35:37

love, and that is exactly what they do I found his responses on things he

Henri: 00:35:42

didn't participate in the paradigm.

Henri: 00:35:44

He didn't jump into that,

Henri: 00:35:45

he didn't say anything about it.

Henri: 00:35:47

The overarching thing was just a breath of fresh air, certainly one point among

Henri: 00:35:52

a multitude of other horrifying ones, especially in terms of suppression

Henri: 00:35:56

of what's happening over there.

Jovanni: 00:35:57

So it's one of the things you mentioned pro Palestinian people

Jovanni: 00:36:00

in the United States, they're always confronted with that question.

Jovanni: 00:36:04

That's one of the things I also mentioned in that procession you organized is that

Jovanni: 00:36:08

one thing, is codified in international law, that people under occupation, people

Jovanni: 00:36:14

under oppression, have a right to resist.

Jovanni: 00:36:16

They have the right to free themselves by any means necessary.

Jovanni: 00:36:20

It's codified in international law and the occupier does not have a right

Jovanni: 00:36:24

over the people they're occupying.

Jovanni: 00:36:26

The occupier has responsibilities.

Jovanni: 00:36:29

They have a responsibility to life.

Jovanni: 00:36:31

To disrupt the civilian life as little as possible under the occupation.

Jovanni: 00:36:35

That's their responsibility under the occupation because occupation is legal.

Jovanni: 00:36:41

But if you are occupying, as an occupier, you have responsibilities.

Jovanni: 00:36:44

You don't have a right, however, the occupied do have a right, they have

Jovanni: 00:36:48

a right to free themselves, by any means necessary, and that's one of the

Jovanni: 00:36:51

narratives here in the West we need to be firm about, every time we're

Jovanni: 00:36:54

told, do you condemn Muhammad, dead in October 7, the answer should be no.

Jovanni: 00:36:58

Because Hamas is a resistance, right?

Jovanni: 00:37:00

They're of the people, right?

Jovanni: 00:37:01

Just like Mao said, revolutionary swims the sea of the people.

Jovanni: 00:37:04

They're part of the people.

Jovanni: 00:37:05

They're from there, and they have the right to resist by any means necessary.

Jovanni: 00:37:08

One of the things that needs to be said about, October 7th is

Jovanni: 00:37:12

that the Israeli government hasn't really done an investigation.

Jovanni: 00:37:15

If there were to do an investigation, a lot of people have done journalists

Jovanni: 00:37:19

and everything that has circumstantial, investigation, judging by the pictures

Jovanni: 00:37:23

that was seen, but they haven't.

Jovanni: 00:37:24

The reason they haven't is because a lot of people will have to, a

Jovanni: 00:37:27

lot of heads will roll, if there were to do one investigation.

Jovanni: 00:37:30

For one thing, they keep talking about, and Kamala Harris also

Jovanni: 00:37:33

mentioned it they keep talking about a hundred and, what is it?

Jovanni: 00:37:35

At the beginning, they said that October 7 is Israel's 9 11.

Jovanni: 00:37:41

No, it's not.

Jovanni: 00:37:42

The Israelis Netanyahu said, this is the greatest violence on

Jovanni: 00:37:46

Jewish people since the Holocaust.

Jovanni: 00:37:48

No, it's not.

Jovanni: 00:37:49

What needs to be said is that this was a military operation, by the resistance,

Jovanni: 00:37:54

it wasn't just Hamas, it was a coalition of factions that conducted this operation

Jovanni: 00:37:59

on military targets in the Gaza envelope when they assaulted military, bases,

Jovanni: 00:38:05

they assaulted military, outposts that was there to spy on them and to keep

Jovanni: 00:38:10

confined Palestinians there in Gaza.

Jovanni: 00:38:12

Gaza is referred as a big, huge concentration camp and those

Jovanni: 00:38:15

military outposts that were assaulted that day that was their job.

Jovanni: 00:38:18

The job was to contain Palestinians in Gaza and what Hamas did

Jovanni: 00:38:22

was breach security walls and assaulted these outposts.

Jovanni: 00:38:25

They assaulted these outposts and they had a couple missions here, one

Jovanni: 00:38:28

thing, they assaulted the outposts.

Jovanni: 00:38:29

So it was one big, if you were to relate it to the American experience.

Jovanni: 00:38:33

It was a little bighorn, the Battle of Little Bighorn against Custer's Army.

Jovanni: 00:38:38

The South IDF Command was humiliated on October 7th,

Jovanni: 00:38:41

and they abandoned their post.

Jovanni: 00:38:43

They abandoned their posts, when they got this assault, according

Jovanni: 00:38:46

to Scott Ritter, a former U.

Jovanni: 00:38:48

S.

Jovanni: 00:38:48

Marine officer and weapons inspector, he described October 7th as the most

Jovanni: 00:38:53

successful military raid of this century, from a guerrilla force, that doesn't have

Jovanni: 00:39:00

the same resources as the enemy, right?

Jovanni: 00:39:03

That pretty much, survive out of his wits and out of his own native,

Jovanni: 00:39:07

creativity against the most armed military in the region, Israel, it

Jovanni: 00:39:11

was a humiliating defeat for them, and the response They went in full force.

Jovanni: 00:39:16

They went in full force to respond to that, right?

Jovanni: 00:39:19

Hamas had a couple missions to keep the Palestinian story alive.

Jovanni: 00:39:22

With new Middle East that Trump was pushing for.

Jovanni: 00:39:25

Just a month before that, Netanya was in the United Nations showing

Jovanni: 00:39:28

a map of the new Middle East and Israel without a Palestinian,

Jovanni: 00:39:31

without a Gaza, without a west Bank.

Jovanni: 00:39:34

He had all these governments, making concessions with Israel.

Jovanni: 00:39:37

They were normalizing salary was a holdout.

Jovanni: 00:39:39

Salary was a huge asset there because the salary was to normalize.

Jovanni: 00:39:42

That means they will give the green light for everybody else to normalize and the

Jovanni: 00:39:45

Palestinian question would have been dead after that, so what Hamas did was

Jovanni: 00:39:50

to keep the Palestinian question alive.

Jovanni: 00:39:52

And give the IDF a bloody nose, if it bleeds, it can die, right?

Jovanni: 00:39:57

They're not this omnipotent entity, they haven't done an investigation

Jovanni: 00:40:01

yet, they keep talking about this 1, 200 Israeli, killed on that day as

Jovanni: 00:40:05

if they were all civilians, and they weren't all civilians, it was a mixture

Jovanni: 00:40:08

between military people, And civilians involved as well in crossfires, but

Jovanni: 00:40:12

the way they make it sound, it's just like Hamas lined up 1, 200 people

Jovanni: 00:40:16

against the wall and executed them.

Jovanni: 00:40:17

That's not what happened.

Jovanni: 00:40:18

Your take.

Sara Masoud: 00:40:19

No, and I think you brought up a good point in that, Calling this the

Sara Masoud: 00:40:24

worst massacre against the Jewish people since the Holocaust erases Israel's own

Sara Masoud: 00:40:30

violence to Jews of Palestine in the establishment of the State of Israel.

Sara Masoud: 00:40:35

There is ample evidence to show that.

Sara Masoud: 00:40:37

Many of the people who were massacred on the 7th were killed by Israelis.

Sara Masoud: 00:40:41

Israelis killed by Israel, exactly.

Sara Masoud: 00:40:44

And I think we're still dealing with the consequence of, the misreporting

Sara Masoud: 00:40:49

that was done on October 7th.

Sara Masoud: 00:40:51

But I also don't want to participate in conversations of October 7th

Sara Masoud: 00:40:55

in Hamas without the nuance of the Palestinian experience being in

Sara Masoud: 00:41:00

Gaza, the people of Gaza have lost.

Sara Masoud: 00:41:03

It's one thing to talk about this as Israel losing, Israel being

Sara Masoud: 00:41:08

humiliated, Hamas winning, Hamas being humiliated, ultimately what's

Sara Masoud: 00:41:12

happening is the people of Palestine who are trapped in Gaza, are living

Sara Masoud: 00:41:18

the most horrific experiences that any of us could imagine.

Sara Masoud: 00:41:24

We just have to open our phones and see people watching their loved ones burned

Sara Masoud: 00:41:27

alive or watching their children starve to death in front of them, suffocating.

Sara Masoud: 00:41:32

I don't think people comprehend what happens to a human body even if

Sara Masoud: 00:41:35

you are pulled out from the rubble.

Sara Masoud: 00:41:38

What happens to the human body your body goes into a state of shock

Sara Masoud: 00:41:41

and you can die from kidney failure because of the excretions within your

Sara Masoud: 00:41:45

body from the impact of being crushed under rubble, which is a horrifying

Sara Masoud: 00:41:50

way to die at the end of the day, all these conversations about Hamas and

Sara Masoud: 00:41:54

this, political dialogue where we are constantly exhausted and engaging in

Sara Masoud: 00:41:58

conversations do you condemn Hamas and I think some anchoring points are always,

Sara Masoud: 00:42:03

the United States is as accountable for this genocide as Israel is.

Sara Masoud: 00:42:08

There would be no genocide.

Sara Masoud: 00:42:09

Israel would not be able to commit this genocide.

Sara Masoud: 00:42:12

Thanks.

Sara Masoud: 00:42:13

It weren't backed by the United States and then the other Western governments

Sara Masoud: 00:42:17

it doesn't matter politically where we land, you don't have to have a

Sara Masoud: 00:42:21

sophisticated critique of the state to know that you don't condone genocide.

Sara Masoud: 00:42:26

Where you land on this conversation should always be, I'm going to

Sara Masoud: 00:42:30

do whatever I can to stop the existence of harm against people.

Sara Masoud: 00:42:36

Being in the United States and not being able to physically strap yourself

Sara Masoud: 00:42:39

to a bomb doesn't mean there aren't things we can do to try to dismantle

Sara Masoud: 00:42:44

the systems of power that facilitate the genocide against the Palestinian people.

Jovanni: 00:42:50

Yeah, just like a local San Antonio said, Aaron Bushnell,

Jovanni: 00:42:55

and one of his last statement was if you ever wondered.

Jovanni: 00:42:59

What you would have been doing the slavery or the Jewish holocaust or The

Jovanni: 00:43:07

civil rights era you're doing it now

Sara Masoud: 00:43:09

So there's a lot that still needs to be done.

Sara Masoud: 00:43:12

As this anniversary has come and gone it just seems to be getting worse.

Sara Masoud: 00:43:17

It should rally us to, fight harder we do have our role here in San

Sara Masoud: 00:43:23

Antonio, and we have a role to play in the liberation of Palestine.

Sara Masoud: 00:43:28

San Antonio for Justice in Palestine Is where people can, who are local, if they

Sara Masoud: 00:43:32

want to get involved, should reach out.

Jovanni: 00:43:35

I think, it's a good place to wrap it up for the day.

Jovanni: 00:43:38

What do you think, Henri?

Henri: 00:43:40

Sounds good,

Sara Masoud: 00:43:42

thank you.

Sara Masoud: 00:43:43

I really appreciate this dialogue and how much research and, investment y'all

Sara Masoud: 00:43:46

have put into having this conversation.

Jovanni: 00:43:48

Dr.

Jovanni: 00:43:48

Massoud, thank you for coming and sharing your thoughts and experience with us.

Jovanni: 00:43:54

How can people support, what you're doing?

Sara Masoud: 00:43:57

San Antonio for Justice in Palestine, SAJP1948 on Instagram.

Sara Masoud: 00:44:02

We, collect funds.

Sara Masoud: 00:44:03

One of our core founding members, is, RZA and we're able to send

Sara Masoud: 00:44:08

money to RZA to provide food.

Sara Masoud: 00:44:12

So if people wanted to support, monetarily, we can definitely receive

Sara Masoud: 00:44:16

funds on the Instagram page, people can learn how to do that, or contact

Sara Masoud: 00:44:21

us and then if people are willing to get involved in a more tangible

Sara Masoud: 00:44:26

and direct way in terms of building their capacity to be organizers.

Sara Masoud: 00:44:30

At the local level, we have.

Sara Masoud: 00:44:33

Built out some training protocols and opportunities for people to do that.

Sara Masoud: 00:44:37

And again, the Instagram is a good way to reach us.

Henri: 00:44:40

I'll include a link to it in our show notes so folks can find it

Sara Masoud: 00:44:43

okay, thanks.

Jovanni: 00:44:44

Thank you guys, for being with us today.

Jovanni: 00:44:47

Thank you for joining us.

Jovanni: 00:44:48

Please subscribe.

Jovanni: 00:44:49

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Jovanni: 00:44:55

Look us up wherever you listen to podcasts.

Jovanni: 00:44:57

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Jovanni: 00:44:58

Help us grow and stay tuned to our next episode.

Jovanni: 00:45:02

Thank you.

Sara Masoud: 00:45:04

Appreciate y'all.

Jovanni: 00:45:05

Bye.

Henri: 00:45:06

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