Episode 152
DPRK says no to reunification w/ KJ Noh – Ep 152
Jovanni hosts political analyst K.J. Noh for a deep dive into the historic decision by North Korean leader Kim Jong Un not to pursue reconciliation with South Korea, the escalating tensions involving Pyongyang, Seoul, and Washington, and the impact of international geopolitics on North Korea’s future. They also weigh in on the recent International Court of Justice ruling regarding Israel.
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Transcript
This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan,
Don:Jo vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha
Jovanni:Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about U.
Jovanni:S.
Jovanni:foreign policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and American way of war.
Jovanni:I'm Jovanni.
Jovanni:Thank you for being here with us today.
Jovanni:On January 16th, D.
Jovanni:P.
Jovanni:K.
Jovanni:R.
Jovanni:leader Kim Jong un said his country would no longer pursue reconciliation
Jovanni:with South Korea and called for rewriting the North's constitution
Jovanni:to eliminate idea of shared statehood between the war divided countries.
Jovanni:The heroic, the historic step to halt A long pursued policy of peaceful
Jovanni:unification based on a sense of national homogeneity comes at a time
Jovanni:when tensions between Pyongyang, Seoul, and Washington are rising.
Jovanni:With the two years old conservative government in Seoul coming into power
Jovanni:with bellicose rhetoric against the North, with statements such as having
Jovanni:the right to launch preemptive strikes against the Northern Brother, the DPRK
Jovanni:increased weapons development launching cruise missiles into the sea, and a recent
Jovanni:launch of reconnaissance satellite into space, and Washington's ever provocative
Jovanni:military exercise in the Palenza and near the DPKR borders and waters, which
Jovanni:the Pyongyang government plans sees this as a rehearsal for an eventual U.
Jovanni:S.
Jovanni:rock invasion of his territory.
Jovanni:On January 24, Pyongyang tore down this huge arch sculpture that
Jovanni:symbolized unification with the South.
Jovanni:The Korean peninsula has been a single entity since the 7th
Jovanni:century, when the Silla dynasty unified itself under its rule.
Jovanni:The peninsula came under Japanese rule in 1910 and was liberated in 1945 with
Jovanni:the Soviet invasion from the North.
Jovanni:They defeated the Japanese there and with the Americans defeated
Jovanni:the Japanese in the Pacific.
Jovanni:Korea came under the administration of both the Soviets and the U.
Jovanni:S.
Jovanni:in 1945 with the peninsula, uh, when the peninsula was divided
Jovanni:into at the 38th parallel.
Jovanni:A brutal three year war was fought in the Korean peninsula between the American LED
Jovanni:UN Coalition and a North Korean Chinese, south Korean guerrilla front, which caused
Jovanni:a death of over 4 million Koreans and a massive destructions of the country from
Jovanni:1950 to 1953 and paused with an armistice to this day, the peninsula remains in
Jovanni:a state of war heavily militarized.
Jovanni:And with the American presence of approximately 28, 000
Jovanni:service members in the South.
Jovanni:Not counting the tens of thousands more surrounding the territory
Jovanni:in Japan, Guam, and other places.
Jovanni:Here to tell us more, we welcome back to the show K.
Jovanni:J.
Jovanni:Noh.
Jovanni:K.
Jovanni:J.
Jovanni:is a journalist, political analyst, writer, and educator,
Jovanni:specializing in geopolitics of Asian politics, Asian Pacific region.
Jovanni:He writes for Dissent Voice, Black Agenda Report, Counterpunch, Popular
Jovanni:Resistance, Asia, Asian Times, M.
Jovanni:R., M.
Jovanni:R.
Jovanni:R.
Jovanni:Line.
Jovanni:He also does frequent commentary analysis on the news program, The
Jovanni:Critical Hour, By Any Means Necessary, Fault Lines, Political Misfits, Loud
Jovanni:and Clear, Breakthrough News, KPFA Flashpoints, and KPA Flashpoints.
Jovanni:Welcome back, KJ.
KJ Noh:Thank you.
KJ Noh:Pleasure to be with you.
Jovanni:KJ, so, Let's, let's get to this.
Jovanni:So, what does it mean now that Pyongyang has stated it will no longer be
Jovanni:pursuing reunification with the South?
KJ Noh:It means that they're very worried about the escalations that South
KJ Noh:Korea is initiating against North Korea.
KJ Noh:There's a fundamental principle that you have to apply anytime
KJ Noh:you hear about a news from North Korea, and that is that you are
KJ Noh:only being shown the reaction shot.
KJ Noh:You're not seeing what was just preceding that.
KJ Noh:And what just preceded that was that South Korea had been escalating.
KJ Noh:They say, well, North Korea, you know, designated, uh, South
KJ Noh:Korea as its principal enemy, how nefarious and aggressive.
KJ Noh:What nobody tells you is that principal enemy is the language that South Korea
KJ Noh:has been using against North Korea, and North Korea simply reacting to that.
KJ Noh:Same thing with every kinetic or counter kinetic engagement.
KJ Noh:There is always a South Korean slash US provocation.
KJ Noh:So you're always being shown only the reaction shot.
KJ Noh:And that gives you the impression that North Korea is aggressive and insane.
KJ Noh:But that's absolutely a misrepresentation.
KJ Noh:North Korea has given up on on a diplomatic solution
KJ Noh:to the North South issue.
KJ Noh:And that is because, clearly, the current South Korean Yoon administration has gone
KJ Noh:all in on aggression against North Korea.
KJ Noh:Why has it done that?
KJ Noh:Because it's doing the bidding of the United States.
KJ Noh:It's a quizzling client state, which is, the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is escalating against North Korea.
KJ Noh:Not because North Korea is a threat.
KJ Noh:But because the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:seeks to escalate against China and North Korea is the pretext.
KJ Noh:Or the Stalking Horse.
KJ Noh:That is to say, uh, the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is encircling China.
KJ Noh:It wants to engage militarily with China.
KJ Noh:Historically, uh, Korea, the Korean Peninsula has always been one of the
KJ Noh:key points with which to attack China.
KJ Noh:Kind of a A bridgehead onto the continent, if you will, and it is using South
KJ Noh:Korea's provocations against North Korea to escalate against North Korea, knowing
KJ Noh:that the only country that China has a military alliance with is North Korea.
KJ Noh:War with North Korea means war against China.
Jovanni:Indeed, and we saw this government in Seoul, um, when they
Jovanni:came to power in 2022, I believe, uh, they weren't even warm in the seat.
Jovanni:They didn't even warm their seat, and they were already talking about, um, Seoul's
Jovanni:right for preemptive attacks against North, uh, even with nuclear weapons.
Jovanni:Um, and uh, the North's supposed to sit, with that, and it's
Jovanni:supposed to be okay with that.
KJ Noh:Exactly, right?
KJ Noh:So, it is the South Korean government, the South Korean Quisling
KJ Noh:government, uh, under the prompting of the United States that has been
KJ Noh:escalating in extraordinary ways.
KJ Noh:And, um, they had talked about You know, preemptive attacks, uh, punishing North
KJ Noh:Korea, uh, threatening North Korea.
KJ Noh:They have done 20 strategic nuclear exercises against
KJ Noh:North Korea in the past year.
KJ Noh:20.
KJ Noh:And so, from that standpoint, North Korea clearly has a few things
KJ Noh:that might be of concern to itself, and therefore, you know, they have
KJ Noh:reacted in, you know, a forceful manner, which is what they always do.
KJ Noh:just again, you know, not to browbeat people over the
KJ Noh:historical context, North Korea was obliterated during the Korean War.
KJ Noh:If you can imagine the devastation, the barbarity and the devastation that is
KJ Noh:being wreaked on Gaza, and you think about that, and you expand that to 1, 000 fold,
KJ Noh:where every inch of North Korean territory was made to look like the devastation
KJ Noh:of Gaza, and one third, between one fifth and one third of the population,
KJ Noh:almost all civilian, were killed.
KJ Noh:Then you understand why North Korea is slightly anxious when their principal
KJ Noh:enemy does nuclear exercises against them.
KJ Noh:Until 1991, the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:had nuclear weapons stationed.
KJ Noh:On The Korean Peninsula.
KJ Noh:Since 1953, it has routinely, in fact, since 1950, the US
KJ Noh:has routinely threatened North Korea with nuclear annihilation.
KJ Noh:Colin Powell threatened to turn North Korea into a charcoal, briquette.
KJ Noh:I mean, that's unthinkable, because North Korea was turned into the
KJ Noh:world, world's largest barbecue pit.
KJ Noh:And there was so much napalm dropped on, you know, North Korea, you
KJ Noh:know, that it was just turned into one long smoldering barbecue pit.
KJ Noh:And US leaders, you know, routinely throughout this kind of language.
KJ Noh:And so, of course, North Korea is going to be anxious when it sees vast
KJ Noh:military strategic nuclear exercise rehearsed against it on its doorstep.
KJ Noh:You know, it's one of those places where, you know, where the paranoia is justified.
KJ Noh:In fact, I would say that regardless of how paranoid they
KJ Noh:get, it's probably never enough.
KJ Noh:South Korea rehearses decapitation drills of North Korea routinely,
KJ Noh:and in the past year, uh, there were 200 days, uh, in which the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:and South Korea rehearsed military exercises, uh, against North Korea.
Jovanni:Indeed, and, you know, one has to consider also that, what precedes action
Jovanni:is usually rhetoric, action doesn't come out of the blue, it's always preceded by
Jovanni:rhetoric, and indeed they're, um, based on their experiences, and also based on
Jovanni:what's happening around the world, the West is pretty much lighting the whole
Jovanni:world on fire, going back to, uh, 2023 with with the whole, speech about the
Jovanni:axis of evil where they included, Iraq, Iran, and, and North Korea into these
Jovanni:axes of evil, coming out of the blue.
Jovanni:So indeed, there is, justification for their paranoia, for their, uh, concerns
Jovanni:of, of the security of the nation.
Jovanni:So, There's this article that came out by Robert Carlin and
Jovanni:Sigford Hecker, it's entitled, it's Kim Jong un preparing for war.
Jovanni:They write that Pyongyang has invested in peace and normalization with the South
Jovanni:and the Americans for the last 33 years.
Jovanni:But has been routinely betrayed and humiliated by the West.
Jovanni:From the Clinton administration, to the Bush Jr.
Jovanni:administration, to the Obama and Trump administration.
Jovanni:It now feels that all options have been exhausted and every
Jovanni:strategy has ended in failure.
Jovanni:What's your take on that?
KJ Noh:It's a very interesting article and people, um, my colleagues
KJ Noh:who have been reading this, we've all been mystified by the article.
KJ Noh:There's one piece of truth in that article, which is that
KJ Noh:North Korea has made good faith efforts to engage with the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:and with the West for decades.
KJ Noh:It's tried.
KJ Noh:It's put its best foot forward.
KJ Noh:And it's absolutely true that the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:has betrayed and deceived North Korea at every point.
KJ Noh:For example, you just talked about the axis of evil statement
KJ Noh:that George Bush came out with.
KJ Noh:Well, I mean, that statement came out.
KJ Noh:Even just as North Korea was entering into talks, uh, you know, to give up its
KJ Noh:nuclear weapons in exchange for peace.
KJ Noh:That's what North Korea has been suing for since 1953.
KJ Noh:What it wants is security.
KJ Noh:He wants to live in peace.
KJ Noh:And the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:has thwarted that at every single turn, because it needs North Korea, first to
KJ Noh:feed its military industrial complex, but also because North Korea, as I said
KJ Noh:before, has always been a stalking horse.
KJ Noh:For North Korea, it justifies the presence of U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:troops on the peninsula, and it allows the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:to project vast power into the Pacific.
KJ Noh:It allows the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:to maintain operational control.
KJ Noh:over South Korean troops to this day.
KJ Noh:So it's true that much is true that North Korea has put its best foot forward to
KJ Noh:negotiate and to engage in diplomacy.
KJ Noh:And it's also true that North Korea seems to have given up on on this process.
KJ Noh:And I think it was a long and difficult choice that it made.
KJ Noh:But what me and my colleagues are mystified with is that the the that
KJ Noh:Carlin and Hecker say that North Korea has, because North Korea
KJ Noh:has stopped attempting diplomatic engagement, It has to go to go to war.
KJ Noh:That is to say, there's no in between between disengagement and war.
KJ Noh:It's just a simple binary.
KJ Noh:And when you read the article carefully, and, you know, Colin and Hecker are,
KJ Noh:quote unquote, experts on North Korea.
KJ Noh:So it this This leap of logic is very, very troublesome.
KJ Noh:When you read the article and try to figure out why North Korea has
KJ Noh:decided to go to war, well, they say, this is because North Korea is crazy.
KJ Noh:It's insane, which, you know, doesn't mean anything.
KJ Noh:It's just standard.
KJ Noh:You know, it's always, but the other thing they say is that North Korea has to
KJ Noh:fight Because it has run out of options.
KJ Noh:Okay, what does that mean?
KJ Noh:That doesn't make any sense.
KJ Noh:It still has plenty of options short of war.
KJ Noh:The only way that makes sense is If the United States was planning to
KJ Noh:attack North Korea, then it has to.
Jovanni:They're further right that, uh, although Pyongyang's, I'm quoting
Jovanni:here, although Pyongyang's decision making often appears Ad hoc and
Jovanni:short sighted, in fact, the North Koreans view the world strategically
Jovanni:and from a long term perspective.
Jovanni:Beginning with the crucial strategic decision by Kim Il sung in 1990, the
Jovanni:North pursued a policy centered on the goal of normalizing relations
Jovanni:with the United States as a buffer against China and Russia.
Jovanni:After initial movement in the direction with the 1994 agreement framework,
Jovanni:In six years of implementation, the prospects for success diminished when,
Jovanni:in Pyongyang's eye, successive U.
Jovanni:S.
Jovanni:administrations pulled away from engagement and largely
Jovanni:ignored North Korean initiatives.
Jovanni:Even after the agreed framework fell apart, the North tried to
Jovanni:pull the US back into serious talks with giving unprecedented access
Jovanni:to the nuclear center at Young, young to one to one of us Hecker.
Jovanni:During the Barrett, during the Barack Obama administration, the
Jovanni:North made several attempts that Washington not only failed to probe,
Jovanni:but in one case rejected out of.
Jovanni:There is much debate in the United States whether the North was ever
Jovanni:serious and whether dialogue was simply a cover for developing nuclear weapons.
Jovanni:Your thoughts?
KJ Noh:Well, I do think that they were serious because they
KJ Noh:made serious efforts to engage.
KJ Noh:They certainly, allowed themselves to be strip searched by the West.
KJ Noh:They allowed the West into their facilities and they had unbridled access.
KJ Noh:They even, you know, cameras were monitoring Yongbyon all the time.
KJ Noh:Uh, HECR went in, I think six times into the country.
KJ Noh:They blew up some of their, you know, infrastructure, uh, et cetera.
KJ Noh:So there were clearly, good faith efforts made, uh, and so I think it's pretty
KJ Noh:dishonest of Hecker and Carlin to say that they weren't because they were there
KJ Noh:on the ground and they knew how serious and in earnest, uh, these efforts were.
KJ Noh:And it also contradicts their main premise, which is that they say that
KJ Noh:North Korea made good efforts and now it's disappointed, uh, that, you know,
KJ Noh:that These efforts didn't bear fruit.
KJ Noh:I mean, if they want good faith efforts, then of course, what would you expect?
KJ Noh:And so there's some internal contradictions there.
KJ Noh:But I think the key thing which is important here is that Hecker and
KJ Noh:Carlin say, we must Consider a worst case, that Kim has convinced himself,
KJ Noh:after decades of trying, emphasis, decades of trying, there is no way
KJ Noh:to engage the United States, and therefore, therefore, uh, they have made
KJ Noh:the strategic decision to go to war.
KJ Noh:That's the piece that doesn't make any sense.
KJ Noh:And as I said, it doesn't make sense unless you fill in the missing, uh,
KJ Noh:premise or assumption that the North Korea is preparing to respond to a U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:attack.
KJ Noh:Then It makes sense.
KJ Noh:The hidden premise that the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is getting ready to wage war, you add that to the picture, then you understand
KJ Noh:why North Korea has run out of options.
KJ Noh:So my question to Carlin and Hecker is, is this a leak?
KJ Noh:Is this a trial balloon?
KJ Noh:Is it a projection?
KJ Noh:Is it a slip of the tongue?
KJ Noh:But this notion that it's North Korea that's planning to attack, uh, because
KJ Noh:it has run out of options doesn't make any sense unless you add in another
KJ Noh:piece of the picture, which is that North Korea is preparing to defend itself
KJ Noh:against attack from the United States.
KJ Noh:And everything that I've seen indicates that the logistical preparations, as
KJ Noh:well as you pointed out, the rhetoric are escalating seriously in that direction.
KJ Noh:I'll add, yeah, I'll add one more piece to this.
KJ Noh:So why would, uh, Hecker and Carlin write this article, uh, what
KJ Noh:privileged access do they have to U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:plans, because they certainly don't have privileged access to North Korea, nobody
KJ Noh:does, uh, their information about North Korea is as good as yours and mine, but
KJ Noh:they may have privileged access to U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:plans because, it boils down to this, If the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is planning some kind of kinetic engagement in Korea, uh, if the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is planning kinetic engagement against China, Korea is the most logical place.
KJ Noh:Because it is the place where the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:has the greatest overmatch, uh, against its opponent.
KJ Noh:Because the force disposition, the preparation, as I said, because the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:has operational control over 3.
KJ Noh:6 million South Korean troops, including reservists.
KJ Noh:But North Korea is no longer a free lunch.
KJ Noh:It has nuclear weapons.
KJ Noh:Initially, you know, a few years ago, as you and I know, the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:moved the 8th Army garrison to Pyeongtaek, Camp Humphreys, right?
KJ Noh:And that was to move it out of the range of North Korea's
KJ Noh:Conventional artillery fire.
KJ Noh:Yongsan is dead in the center of the capital city, Seoul.
KJ Noh:It's as if Central Park in New York were being occupied by a military.
KJ Noh:So, but they moved the 8th Army garrison out of Seoul I moved it,
KJ Noh:you know, 80 miles further away.
KJ Noh:That takes it out of conventional fire, if you will.
KJ Noh:It's kind of a castling maneuver.
KJ Noh:But in the period between, you know, that maneuver and the current moment,
KJ Noh:North Korea now has nuclear missiles and Other missiles, longer range missiles,
KJ Noh:uh, essentially, you know, scuds, uh, that can do real damage anywhere.
KJ Noh:And so, North Korea has has its own counter move.
KJ Noh:So, if the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is planning for some kind of kinetic engagement against North Korea,
KJ Noh:it needs to assess the risks.
KJ Noh:It wants kinetic engagement, but it doesn't want to be completely uncontained.
KJ Noh:And I don't think it wants to go immediately up the
KJ Noh:nuclear escalation ladder.
KJ Noh:It doesn't have good intel, certainly not good human on North Korea.
KJ Noh:So it probably reached out to some of the few experts who really know Korea,
KJ Noh:and that would be Carlin and Hecker.
KJ Noh:And so they probably had a dialogue with Carlin and Hecker.
KJ Noh:Asked them to assess, you know, if there's kinetic engagement, what are the chances
KJ Noh:that North Korea would go immediately up the nuclear escalation ladder?
KJ Noh:Uh, and in this dialogue back and forth, maybe a few questions were asked or maybe
KJ Noh:a few hints were dropped that made both Carlin and Hecker very, very nervous.
KJ Noh:So they, you know, probably said to each other, you won't believe the dialogue I
KJ Noh:just had with the State Department and the Pentagon, do you think that the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is considering kinetic action?
KJ Noh:Uh, and, and then they wrote this article.
KJ Noh:So, there's a missing premise here, and that missing premise,
KJ Noh:I think, is that the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:is having dialogues and assessments about its, uh, capacity to engage
KJ Noh:in kinetic war against North Korea.
KJ Noh:And Carlin Hecker writing this article, it pre frames the narrative so that
KJ Noh:if war happens, uh, they can say, look, you know, we warned this would
KJ Noh:happen, uh, and, and then once again, we are only shown The reaction shot.
Jovanni:Yeah.
Jovanni:The effect.
Jovanni:Yeah.
Jovanni:The aftermath.
Jovanni:Yes.
Jovanni:Indeed.
Jovanni:Indeed.
Jovanni:Not only that they, the troops were moved from Solopiontec, also northern troops,
Jovanni:troops that were stationed up north that were redeployed also further south.
Jovanni:And not only further south, they were also taken away from the peninsula, redeployed
Jovanni:to places like in Japan and, uh, Guam as well, to, further create that space.
Jovanni:Between the North and battlefield between the North and the South.
Jovanni:Um, I also recall a few years ago when things were escalating with the North.
Jovanni:I believe it was, uh, Lindsey Graham, uh, was reassuring his constituents that, you
Jovanni:know, if war were to break And, and the Korean Peninsula, uh, not to worry because
Jovanni:the war will be fought over there, not over here, and then pretty much the people
Jovanni:who will be dying will be dying over there, not over here, and this includes
Jovanni:the South Koreans who will be dying as well, but not Americans, which I find
Jovanni:that hilarious that, that people in the South would go along with this policy,
Jovanni:knowing that it were, were to break out, there were, there would be obviously, um,
Jovanni:you know, hindered, You know, as well.
KJ Noh:Yeah, no, that's a really good question.
KJ Noh:And, you know, this is how the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:likes to wage wars, right?
KJ Noh:It's people over there.
KJ Noh:You know, we fight over there so we don't have to fight over here.
KJ Noh:But more than that, we get the people over there to fight our enemies so
KJ Noh:that we don't have to do the fighting.
KJ Noh:It's all, you know, using proxy forces.
KJ Noh:But the cynicism and the lack of humanity in that statement is not
KJ Noh:only appalling, but it's so evident.
KJ Noh:We see this in Ukraine.
KJ Noh:We see this, you know, being prepared in Taiwan as they prepare
KJ Noh:to turn Taiwan into another Ukraine.
KJ Noh:And of course, it has always being the case for South Korea.
KJ Noh:South Koreans have, you know, participated in all American wars.
KJ Noh:They've sent their, young troops as cannon fodder, but also they
KJ Noh:were used as essentially the first kinetic front line in the Cold War.
KJ Noh:And as, you know, as we pointed out, four million Koreans died.
KJ Noh:So this has been the atrocious, atrocious cause of these wars and
KJ Noh:the kind of Machiavellian cynicism of people like Lindsey Graham, really,
KJ Noh:you know, psychopathic thinking.
KJ Noh:But, you know, I'll just draw your attention to one
KJ Noh:kind of historical piece of.
KJ Noh:Trivia, which not many people may be aware of, was that in 1968, about one
KJ Noh:week ago, the North Koreans actually sent a group of 31 commandos into South to
KJ Noh:assassinate the South Korean dictator.
KJ Noh:Um, and if this had been successful, I think history would have been different.
KJ Noh:And I also think that a lot of South Koreans would have been
KJ Noh:very happy because Park Chung hee.
KJ Noh:The dictator was extraordinary in his brutal oppression
KJ Noh:of the South Korean people.
KJ Noh:But this North Korean mission to decapitate, uh,
KJ Noh:Park Chung hee, uh, failed.
KJ Noh:And the reason why it failed, uh, was that the, the North Koreans, they
KJ Noh:sent, they sent these troops, uh, and they infiltrated North Korea, but, um,
KJ Noh:they were discovered by two farmers.
KJ Noh:And, you know, so you're on a, you know, top secret, you know,
KJ Noh:assassination mission, and you have been found out by civilians.
KJ Noh:Well, what would you do?
KJ Noh:Well, what the North Koreans did was they, you know, spoke to the farmers,
KJ Noh:uh, and they essentially, uh, just gave them, uh, some cigarettes, And
KJ Noh:gave them a lecture on solidarity and how they were, you know, uh, you know,
KJ Noh:working, you know, for the benefit of, you know, all Koreans on the peninsula,
KJ Noh:uh, which I think a vast majority of South Koreans would have agreed
KJ Noh:with, uh, and then they set them free.
KJ Noh:And then these, uh, South Korean farmers immediately Ratted out, uh, these North
KJ Noh:Korean, uh, commandos, and then the entire peninsula was turned into a red
KJ Noh:alert, you know, multiple divisions were sent on a massive manhunt, uh, for
KJ Noh:this, uh, you know, Special forces team.
KJ Noh:And still the special forces team managed to penetrate within a couple of hundred
KJ Noh:meters of the presidential palace before they were eliminated in a firefight.
KJ Noh:So to this day, South Korean troops, you know, talk with a kind of grudging
KJ Noh:admiration, you know, for the skill and courage of these North Koreans.
KJ Noh:But, um, I think what, what that tells us there, you know, is that at the
KJ Noh:time, uh, you know, the North Korean leadership and the North Korean cadre and
KJ Noh:the military really thought of the South Korean people as compatriots that they
KJ Noh:were seeking to liberate from, you know, an extraordinary, brutal dictatorship.
KJ Noh:I think they're not wrong there.
KJ Noh:But, um, I think that what has happened over the decades, uh, is that South Korea
KJ Noh:has been so deeply indoctrinated into kind of a colonial mindset that they
KJ Noh:no longer see themselves as Koreans.
KJ Noh:They're like, you know, for example, people in Taiwan Island.
KJ Noh:who see themselves as partially Japanese, partially Western, or people in Hong Kong,
KJ Noh:in the Hong Kong colony, uh, that, that saw themselves as part, partially British.
KJ Noh:And so South Koreans have become very, very Americanized, very Westernized.
KJ Noh:And I think that difference in that distinction, uh, I think has reached,
KJ Noh:you know, led the North Korean leadership to move to towards less of a sense of
KJ Noh:communality and solidarity with the people itself, which is very sad, because,
KJ Noh:the vast majority of people in South Korea have direct family in North Korea.
KJ Noh:It's, you know, everybody has a kin in North Korea.
KJ Noh:And it's this extraordinary political, uh, division, which has
KJ Noh:created this vast, uh, gap, both culturally and, uh, ideologically
KJ Noh:that, that all sides suffer from.
Jovanni:Indeed, I mean, the Korean peninsula has been one entity, I mean,
Jovanni:since, I mean, under one rule and one entity, one people since the, uh,
Jovanni:7th century, uh, and this, uh, this was only broken recently in 1945.
Jovanni:Um, so pretty much the Korean peninsula has been united
Jovanni:longer than it has been divided.
KJ Noh:Absolutely.
KJ Noh:Yes.
KJ Noh:So it's been, uh, united from the unified Chile era, you know, with small
KJ Noh:exceptions for about nearly 1400 years.
Jovanni:Absolutely.
Jovanni:So, Pyongyang, uh, obviously sees what's going on geopolitically, sees
Jovanni:the geopolitical landscape shifting, see what's going on, sees the, the winds
Jovanni:of power moving away from the West, uh, towards China, Russia, Iran, uh,
Jovanni:India, and other global majority states.
Jovanni:You know, we've seen, they're seeing that Europe, for example, you know,
Jovanni:they, uh, They have, they're de industrializing at a massive scale.
Jovanni:Um, they see the crisis in American political, social, and economic politics,
Jovanni:see how, how that's pretty much just pretty much tearing from the same.
Jovanni:Um, so with the West setting fires all over, you know, in every region
Jovanni:of the world, right, do you feel Pyongyang is factoring this into
Jovanni:the geo strategic calculation?
KJ Noh:Certainly, they're aware of it.
KJ Noh:You know, the North Koreans are very, very fine observers of the
KJ Noh:geopolitical, uh, you know, situation.
KJ Noh:Uh, they always balance carefully and they always are strategizing.
KJ Noh:Both tactically and strategically.
KJ Noh:And so I think they're very, very much aware of that.
KJ Noh:What is clear is that North Korea is strengthening its
KJ Noh:relationships with Russia.
KJ Noh:Now, just a quick historical overview.
KJ Noh:Remember, it was Russia, it was the USSR that liberated Korea.
KJ Noh:From Japanese colonization, you know, the, the Red Army tore the guts out of
KJ Noh:the Japanese Kwantung Army within two weeks, the Kwantung Army, you know,
KJ Noh:was this, you know, rolling atrocity machine that actually functioned,
KJ Noh:you know, You know, without taking commands, you know, from the imperial
KJ Noh:center itself, you know, it invaded, uh, China on its own initiative, and it
KJ Noh:was occupying large parts of Manchuria.
KJ Noh:And when the Red Army came in and, you know, essentially wiped out the
KJ Noh:Kwantung Army, it surrendered, uh, then essentially Korea was liberated,
KJ Noh:uh, effectively by, uh, the, the USSR.
KJ Noh:And that should have been the end of the story, except they made an agreement
KJ Noh:with the United States that the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:would, you know, do a caretaker government in the South, that Russia
KJ Noh:would do a caretaker government in the North, and it would be divided
KJ Noh:along the 38th parallel, which led to the North South split, because the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:eventually created a fraudulent Puppet state in South Korea placed one of its
KJ Noh:own puppets rather than allowing a unified election in North and South, which is
KJ Noh:what the vast majority of people wanted.
KJ Noh:It's very similar to North and South Vietnam.
KJ Noh:The reason why they did this, because they knew is if they had a popular
KJ Noh:election, the country would have gone socialist, because that's what all
KJ Noh:the polls said, that 80 percent of the people wanted a socialist country.
KJ Noh:And the US said, we cannot let communism get a start in the Korean
KJ Noh:Peninsula, because it would be, it would have a head start against
KJ Noh:any other place on the planet.
KJ Noh:And so, inside that context, Uh, if we understand, um, you know, these kind of
KJ Noh:shifting global winds, uh, in 68, uh, North Korea started to break a little
KJ Noh:bit with, uh, the Soviet Union, and then in 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed.
KJ Noh:And that put North Korea into a huge crisis.
KJ Noh:For several reasons.
KJ Noh:First was that North Korea was under the Soviet Union's nuclear umbrella.
KJ Noh:And when the Soviet Union went away, North Korea was, you know, exposed to
KJ Noh:nuclear annihilation by the United States.
KJ Noh:And in fact, the US Pointed, uh, its nuclear weapons away from the Soviet Union
KJ Noh:and against North Korea at that time.
KJ Noh:So then that's when North Korea started to look for an indigenous nuclear deterrent.
KJ Noh:The other thing that happened was that it was also being sanctioned.
KJ Noh:North Korea is highly dependent on the USSR for petrochemicals,
KJ Noh:in particular petrochemical fertilizer, because it's a very.
KJ Noh:Uh, mountainous region, it cannot grow enough food without extensive
KJ Noh:use of petrochemical fertilizers.
KJ Noh:And so when that became cut off, uh, North Korea started to enter into, uh,
KJ Noh:food insecurity and then eventually into a period called The arduous
KJ Noh:march was essentially a long famine caused by Western powers that were
KJ Noh:trying to sanctioning it, sanction it, uh, into, uh, into collapsing.
KJ Noh:It didn't, but it suffered immensely.
KJ Noh:And now, you know, the winds are shifting again, and you can see that,
KJ Noh:uh, the United States and the West that has been trying nonstop uh, since its
KJ Noh:inception to try and destroy North Korea is fracturing, uh, inside itself and
KJ Noh:there's centrifugal forces pulling apart the global empire and this, you know,
KJ Noh:500 year reign of Western colonialism.
KJ Noh:North Korea is aware of all of these shifts and changes and one of the
KJ Noh:things that it's done is it's You know, restrengthened its alliances with Russia,
KJ Noh:even as South Korea was sending hundreds of thousands of shells to the United
KJ Noh:States, uh, to be used in Ukraine, Russia counterbalanced, reached out to
KJ Noh:North Korea, uh, and invited it, uh, to, you know, its armaments factories.
KJ Noh:Uh, when the United States placed the Space Force in Tokyo and is
KJ Noh:looking to open the Space Force Uh, in Seoul, well, North Korea
KJ Noh:went to Russia's, uh, space center.
KJ Noh:And so there's this continual tit for tat balancing that is
KJ Noh:happening geostrategically.
KJ Noh:And certainly over the long term, I think that what will happen is, uh, North Korea
KJ Noh:will simply Strengthen, reestablish, normalize its relations with the vast
KJ Noh:number of countries in the global South, which it actually had more relations
KJ Noh:than South Korea up until the 1980s.
KJ Noh:It had, it had more stronger relations with countries
KJ Noh:than did South Korea itself.
KJ Noh:And then also there's a continuous process, which most people
KJ Noh:don't think is the case, but I think is very much the case.
KJ Noh:Which is that North Korea is continually strengthening its relations with China,
KJ Noh:it's closest border, as I said, it's the only country with which China has a
KJ Noh:military alliance with, the only military alliance that China has is with North
KJ Noh:Korea, and so what will happen, Uh, imagine is that eventually North Korea
KJ Noh:will be pulled into part of the Belt and Road and the BRICS, uh, the SCO and
KJ Noh:all the other Global South organizations that are moving towards a multilateral,
KJ Noh:developmental solution, uh, for everybody.
KJ Noh:The other piece that I'll add, and this is also a very important part of the
KJ Noh:equation, Uh, most people don't realize it is that outside of the Arab world,
KJ Noh:the first country outside the Arab world to recognize Palestine was North Korea.
KJ Noh:North Koreans have always been principled in their support of, uh,
KJ Noh:anti imperial liberation movements, but in particular, Palestine.
KJ Noh:And I see, you can see that in the statements that they have
KJ Noh:made, certainly the moral support.
KJ Noh:At one point, they were even sending, you know, armaments to the PLA.
KJ Noh:And I think this South South realignment is a powerful trend that is happening
KJ Noh:that will include North Korea.
KJ Noh:And it will show or it will demonstrate that North Korea, rather than collapsing
KJ Noh:and crawling and submitting as it was supposed to, has withstood, the worst
KJ Noh:that the empire can throw against it.
Jovanni:Indeed, it seems like these, uh, so called authoritarian states and
Jovanni:dictatorships and so forth has a More principled stance on global issues
Jovanni:than the so called democracies of the world, the, uh, the West so far that,
Jovanni:you know, seem to talk from two sides of their mouth, you know, you just made
Jovanni:a point right there with Palestine.
Jovanni:It's a clear cut case yet, everyone sees, every other state around the world, has
Jovanni:the correct approach, uh, what needs to happen, uh, with this case and,
Jovanni:and, with the case of, with Palestine, but the, but the West, you know.
Jovanni:Before, I'll get back to that, but I want, before that, I want to go into
Jovanni:what you just mentioned about the DPRK relationship with the Global South, right?
Jovanni:Do you foresee the DPRK, breaking the so called diplomatic isolation and
Jovanni:Western sanctions by increasing its relationship with the Global South?
Jovanni:Do you foresee it?
Jovanni:Uh, eventually joining these, um, this, uh, multinational, regional,
Jovanni:international, uh, economic and political blocks that are forming
Jovanni:around the world, like the BRICS and the Shanghai Cooperations organizations.
KJ Noh:I think so.
KJ Noh:It's going to take a little bit of time because there are institutional
KJ Noh:barriers that have been put into place.
KJ Noh:North Korea is technically still under sanctions.
KJ Noh:It's still under UNSC sanctions.
KJ Noh:So I think there has to be some effort to remove those sanctions
KJ Noh:before there can be full engagement, you know, on a normalized level.
KJ Noh:But I don't doubt that those things will start to happen.
KJ Noh:Uh, once again, I want to highlight that North Korea has always had a lot
KJ Noh:of connections to the global South.
KJ Noh:It has a lot more legitimacy in the global South than South Korea.
KJ Noh:South Korea.
KJ Noh:along with Taiwan was kind of this axis of fascism and imperialism.
KJ Noh:You can think of Taiwan, South Korea, uh, South Africa, and Israel as being these
KJ Noh:kind of, an axis of, imperial hegemonism and subcontractors to US dirty wars.
KJ Noh:This is really the kind of work that they did.
KJ Noh:And on the other hand, North Korea has always been a principled and
KJ Noh:impoverished It's But deeply principled supporter of Global South Liberation.
KJ Noh:You go to places all over Africa and you will see, you know, vast monuments and
KJ Noh:attestations to friendship and solidarity Uh, and warmth towards North Korea,
KJ Noh:because they know, what North Korea stood, how much it paid for it, and still
KJ Noh:the principle, uh, stances that it made.
KJ Noh:So, I think it's not going to be an immediate process, but certainly
KJ Noh:it is an inevitable process.
KJ Noh:Certainly, most notably, because, North Korea has this enormous border with China.
KJ Noh:How could it not, uh, eventually join the BRI or the SCO?
Jovanni:Absolutely.
Jovanni:Um, I mean, it's very neat, I mean, with the BRI, you just mentioned the BRI,
Jovanni:which is a global development program.
Jovanni:Most countries in the world are signing up to it, eventually, Korea, it'll
Jovanni:be in the best interest, I believe, of North Korea to also join this process.
Jovanni:So, let's shift gears.
Jovanni:So, the recent ICG verdict against Israel, your thoughts on it?
Jovanni:2 (2): Doesn't rule whether it is, but it has a case to answer, uh, uh, about that.
Jovanni:It accepts South Africa's, um, uh, narration of all of the acts that
Jovanni:South Africa says, uh, are genocidal acts, except those accepts those as
Jovanni:possibly, uh, constituting genocide.
Jovanni:It accepts South Africa's, uh, statement of all of the.
Jovanni:Uh, comments made by Israeli politicians as intent for genocide as
Jovanni:being possibly intent for genocide.
Jovanni:Um, and, and then in the provisional measures, uh, while it tosses the ball
Jovanni:into the Israeli court almost completely, uh, but what it does say is that,
Jovanni:for example, that Israel must ensure that, uh, uh, it prevents the killings
Jovanni:of, uh, um, of members of the group of Palestinians, uh, in Gaza, which
Jovanni:essentially means that it should stop killing those members of those groups.
Jovanni:Now, I, let me just say this, that the best we could expect
Jovanni:out of this was a moral victory.
Jovanni:Israel was not going to implement anything that the court had decided.
Jovanni:They made that clear.
Jovanni:Netanyahu said that a few days ago, regarding the
Jovanni:court with disdain, actually.
Jovanni:And so what we did get is a moral victory, a statement that the world will
Jovanni:not allow Israel to get away with its crimes, that it will be investigated.
Jovanni:And I think for the global South.
Jovanni:A sense that international, uh, international law is also something
Jovanni:that is valuable for us and not just for countries of the global north.
KJ Noh:Well, I think there are a couple of takes you can have on it.
KJ Noh:On the first level, it is a complete and total, almost a near total
KJ Noh:vindication of, uh, south Africa's case against Israel, which is that it
KJ Noh:is plausible and there is a real risk.
KJ Noh:That Israel is committing a genocide.
KJ Noh:I think those facts are indisputable.
KJ Noh:I think it's indisputable that genocidal intent has been expressed at
KJ Noh:a policy level and has been expressed It exercised on a tactical level.
KJ Noh:I think that much is absolutely clear.
KJ Noh:So the ICJ almost had no choice.
KJ Noh:I mean, if it was to retain any legitimacy as an institution of international
KJ Noh:justice, it had to find for this case.
KJ Noh:Now, the issue is around the nature of injunctive relief,
KJ Noh:because this is essentially like a, it's a temporary injunction.
KJ Noh:It's like a cease and desist order, a little bit like a
KJ Noh:restraining order, if you will.
KJ Noh:Now, the question that everybody's asking is, why did the ICJ not
KJ Noh:demand immediately a ceasefire.
KJ Noh:So, there are two, uh, types of interpretation of this.
KJ Noh:One is, the cynical aspect, which is that, The ICJ has found, rhetorically
KJ Noh:and symbolically, in favor of South Africa, but they've left an exemption.
KJ Noh:Uh, and that exemption is a genocide sized exemption that essentially,
KJ Noh:it didn't demand Israel to stop, uh, it, what, stop fighting immediately.
KJ Noh:And therefore Israel will claim, we're doing everything else
KJ Noh:that you told us to do already.
KJ Noh:Therefore, we will continue to do what we're doing.
KJ Noh:So that is the cynical interpretation.
KJ Noh:And then the more optimistic interpretation could be that although
KJ Noh:the court did not use the word ceasefire, it made very, very specific demands to
KJ Noh:stop acts of genocide, including killing.
KJ Noh:Palestinians, including, you know, mentally torturing them, including making
KJ Noh:conditions of life uninhabitable for them.
KJ Noh:And so, in the particulars, that amounts to a demand for genocide.
KJ Noh:That's, there's no way that you can follow through, uh, with those demands.
KJ Noh:Without ceasing fire.
KJ Noh:And so I think, and then there's a one month follow up period
KJ Noh:where Israel has to come back and report on what it's been doing.
KJ Noh:And in the meantime, South Africa can make further demands of the court.
KJ Noh:The finding has been made, the injunction, has been granted.
KJ Noh:And so I think this is actually a real Uh, powerful step.
KJ Noh:It not may be, may not be everything, uh, that everybody wanted, but I
KJ Noh:do think it is a powerful step.
KJ Noh:Certainly, I don't think that the perfect should be the enemy of the good.
KJ Noh:This is a good first step.
KJ Noh:And I think that, uh, Everybody, including the USC and the UNGA, uh, and
KJ Noh:people all over the world should use this, leverage this finding as a way
KJ Noh:of, pushing forward towards a ceasefire and then eventually towards, complete,
KJ Noh:legitimation of Palestine's demands for a state, whether that be one state or
KJ Noh:two state, you know, that can be figured out by the Palestinians themselves.
KJ Noh:But in the meantime, I think we have a powerful first step,
KJ Noh:and I'm cautiously optimistic.
KJ Noh:I think what we can say is that to a certain extent, the UN has kicked
KJ Noh:the can down the road a little bit.
KJ Noh:And I think what we have to do is make sure that the can.
KJ Noh:Is going in the right direction.
Jovanni:But this is the end here with this verdict, right?
Jovanni:It's going to further
Jovanni:continue.
KJ Noh:Yes, yes.
KJ Noh:I mean, this is a preliminary injunction.
KJ Noh:It's a temporary injunction.
KJ Noh:The case will actually take years.
KJ Noh:But in the meantime, what you want in a case where, the risk and the
KJ Noh:vulnerability is so extreme, you want that preliminary restraining order.
KJ Noh:And that is what the court has issued.
KJ Noh:Opposition to what many cynics have said would never happen.
KJ Noh:We have that.
KJ Noh:And so now it's incumbent upon anybody and everybody with a voice to leverage it to
KJ Noh:its maximum advantage in order to prevent lives, in order to prevent the suffering,
KJ Noh:the genocide of the Palestinians.
KJ Noh:I think everybody can agree on that.
KJ Noh:Eje, but how can this be enforced?
KJ Noh:Um, you know, I'm not an expert on, you know, UN, uh, international law, but, you
KJ Noh:know, you know, the obvious thing is you take this, you take it to the UNSC, it
KJ Noh:already has the imprimatur of the ICJ, so it's highly, you know, uh, it's not
KJ Noh:something that the UNSC has to debate among itself, it's simply, uh, something
KJ Noh:that the, uh, NSC can demand, right?
KJ Noh:If the US chooses to, uh, veto it, well, certainly it will try and it
KJ Noh:will delegitimate itself even further.
KJ Noh:But then it can go to the UN general assembly.
KJ Noh:And then there are extraordinary measures that I think can be implemented at the
KJ Noh:level of the, uh, un uh, ga and then also it can be referred towards the ICC.
KJ Noh:Again, there's some legal, fine print that has to be worked through, but
KJ Noh:there can be a referral to the ICC.
KJ Noh:And so, I think, one case is not the be all and end all, but it opens the
KJ Noh:watershed for other procedures to happen.
KJ Noh:And so it's just a matter of following up and creating this chain reaction
KJ Noh:event that can make a real difference.
Jovanni:Do you feel that apart from Israel being indicted here, do you feel
Jovanni:the whole international law Order or apparatus and the so called Western
Jovanni:values being, are being indicted as well?
KJ Noh:I think in a certain sense, yes.
KJ Noh:And I think the ICJ ruling is, is an attempt to pick up some kind of threadbare
KJ Noh:fig leaf in order to show that, you know, we're not as genocidal and hypocritical,
KJ Noh:uh, as, as is clearly evident.
KJ Noh:So this is the fig leaf that they're putting forward, but I say we use
KJ Noh:this fig leaf, but absolutely, I think there's a foundational de
KJ Noh:legitimation that is happening because of this, live screened genocide.
KJ Noh:I mean, there have been genocides before, but for this to happen in real time, on
KJ Noh:a billion screens across the world and the United States and Europe and Germany
KJ Noh:to say that it's not happening, that it doesn't mean anything, I think the planet.
KJ Noh:is in an outrage, as they should be.
KJ Noh:And this is foundationally delegitimating.
KJ Noh:The other thing that I'll also say, and this is, you know, once again,
KJ Noh:um, astounding is that even as Israel was genociding the Palestinians, the
KJ Noh:US and Israel, you know, went to the UN and claimed that the Chinese were
KJ Noh:committing genocide against the people.
KJ Noh:In Xinjiang, right?
KJ Noh:Now, this is absurd because, you know, for the very simple reason
KJ Noh:that there's no such thing happening in Xinjiang, you know, the U.
KJ Noh:S.
KJ Noh:makes these allegations of genocide in Xinjiang, but this is the only genocide
KJ Noh:in human history that has no deaths, been able to find a single body, no refugees.
KJ Noh:Despite China having porous borders with five Muslim majority countries,
KJ Noh:preferential and privileged treatment of the targeted group, that is to say
KJ Noh:the Uyghurs were exempt from the one child policy, they received preferential
KJ Noh:treatment in school admissions and employment, uh, and the population
KJ Noh:was continually increasing, life expectancy was increasing, birth rates
KJ Noh:were multiples of the Han majority.
KJ Noh:Continually improving satisfaction, continually improving economic
KJ Noh:conditions, and there was no visible hate speech against the Uyghurs.
KJ Noh:In fact, there was no tolerance of hate speech against the Uyghurs, and no
KJ Noh:rhetoric targeting the Uyghurs whatsoever.
KJ Noh:In fact, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, which represents
KJ Noh:the rights of two billion Muslims across 56 countries, commended
KJ Noh:China for its exemplary treatment of its Muslim minorities.
KJ Noh:So we know that this is Absolutely and completely fraudulent.
KJ Noh:Even the State Department's own lawyers said that, you know, this
KJ Noh:allegation couldn't be upheld.
KJ Noh:You know, anybody can visit Xinjiang tomorrow, and they can see for themselves.
KJ Noh:You know, uh, last year, over 200 people 200 million people
KJ Noh:visited Xinjiang freely.
KJ Noh:It's not a sealed off state.
KJ Noh:Anybody can go there anytime.
KJ Noh:And they see everything is fine.
KJ Noh:People speak their own language.
KJ Noh:They practice their own culture and religion.
KJ Noh:They have rich, flourishing lives.
KJ Noh:And on the other hand, I have tried, and many of my colleagues
KJ Noh:have tried, to get into Gaza.
KJ Noh:And right now, it's impossible.
KJ Noh:In Gaza, there is a real genocide happening.
KJ Noh:And all you have to do is contrast the unspeakable Unspeakable barbarity
KJ Noh:and atrocity happening in Gaza with the incredible flourishing
KJ Noh:of life and culture in Xinjiang.
KJ Noh:And you know that this Xinjiang genocide fraud is as much of a signal of the dying
KJ Noh:empire as the genocide in Palestine.
KJ Noh:It's, it's a foundationally de-legitimizing.
KJ Noh:Uh, violent, uh, lie.
KJ Noh:In fact, it's the other side of the same coin.
KJ Noh:You're enabling and covering up a real genocide while you are fraudulently
KJ Noh:concocting a non existent one.
KJ Noh:I think that is just foundational de legitimation and it shows
KJ Noh:how deeply corrupt Dishonest, hypocritical, mendacious the empire is.
KJ Noh:These are the last legs of empire as it continues, you know, these
KJ Noh:incredible lies and propaganda.
Jovanni:Indeed.
Jovanni:I mean, there were a screen about a couple of years ago, there was a screen off
Jovanni:the top of their lungs that, um, China was committing genocide in Xinjiang.
Jovanni:They're also saying the same thing about Russia and Ukraine when the
Jovanni:actual opposite was happening when the Ukrainians were the ones that were
Jovanni:committing ethnic cleansing against the Russian speaking population.
Jovanni:They're saying the same thing about Syria, that Syria, that the Bishar Al
Jovanni:Asad government was committing genocide against Sunni Syrians, when in fact,
Jovanni:the majority, the military is, is made up of Sunni Syrians, but yeah, it's
Jovanni:absurd how, how they twist this, how they create this reality, so they create
Jovanni:this fictitious, uh, fraudulent arguments where, but when you have actual ethnic
Jovanni:cleansing and genocide, beating you on the face, you know, they, they'll say,
Jovanni:Nope, I don't see any genocide anywhere.
KJ Noh:Exactly, exactly.
KJ Noh:And this is why, you know, as other people have called it, you know, the
KJ Noh:empire of lies, just is relentless, it's high on its own supply.
KJ Noh:And yet it is delegitimating and undercutting itself because it
KJ Noh:believes that other people are as foolish as to believe this, you
KJ Noh:know, violent tapestry of lies.
Jovanni:Absolutely.
Jovanni:Well, I think this is a good place for us to wrap up.
Jovanni:Uh, KJ, thank you so much for coming to the show and share your time,
Jovanni:thoughts, and experiences with us.
Jovanni:Any last comments before we depart?
KJ Noh:Well, you know, once again, I want to point out that we are in
KJ Noh:historic moments, historic times.
KJ Noh:And I believe that each one of us has a role to speak out.
KJ Noh:To take action where we can, to take action with other people, and also
KJ Noh:to not believe the lies, to not be suckered in by this mendacious propaganda
KJ Noh:that is always being thrown at us.
KJ Noh:We always exercise our critical thinking, you know, it's like
KJ Noh:having a healthy immune system.
KJ Noh:You want to have a critical immune system so that you are not dragged
KJ Noh:into this kind of miasma of You know, uh, imperial sickness and
KJ Noh:that we all continue to fight.
KJ Noh:We all have a role to play because right now.
KJ Noh:There's both danger and opportunity and of course the danger as we can see most.
KJ Noh:Viscerally, you know, is, is, is what we see in Palestine.
KJ Noh:It's, the genocide of a long suffering people.
KJ Noh:That plan, uh, is, is also what is in plan for the rest of humanity, if
KJ Noh:we don't all take a stand together.
Jovanni:KJ, uh, please tell us where can the listeners find you and find your work?
Jovanni:Um, and any information, what actions you feel listeners should consider.
Jovanni:You already said that, you know, take, um, join other people, but are
Jovanni:any specific actions you think, um.
Jovanni:People
KJ Noh:should consider it.
KJ Noh:Um, well, you know, I'm with an organization called Pivot to Peace.
KJ Noh:Um, uh, they're welcome to join us.
KJ Noh:I also invite people to join Code Pink.
KJ Noh:Code Pink has a campaign, uh, China is not our enemy, uh, which is
KJ Noh:also that I'm, uh, associated with.
KJ Noh:Anything that is an action in solidarity with Palestine and
KJ Noh:for enforcing the ICJ's actions.
KJ Noh:I encourage people to really put their shoulder behind really, you know, the
KJ Noh:fate of not just the Palestinians, but the fate, uh, the future of,
KJ Noh:of our planet, uh, is at stake.
KJ Noh:The balance, uh, of, of our, you know, of justice is at stake.
KJ Noh:So I invite people to go ahead and You know, really, you know,
KJ Noh:uh, put some effort here right now is, is a critical moment for us.
KJ Noh:And as for my work, you know, if you, I, I don't recommend people use Google,
KJ Noh:uh, because I'm essentially de facto shadow banned from there, but you can
KJ Noh:go to websites like, um, uh, MR Online.
KJ Noh:Uh, monthly review online, um, counter punch.
KJ Noh:Uh, I do a lot of analysis for, uh, you know, various shows, uh,
KJ Noh:breakthrough news, uh, many critical hour, uh, many Sputnik, uh, radio
KJ Noh:shows, uh, as well as anything that's progressive and justice centered.
KJ Noh:Uh, I, I tend to write for these, uh.
KJ Noh:Publications and, and of course, uh, uh, Fortress On A Hill.
KJ Noh:And I'm very, very honored that you invited me back to spend this
KJ Noh:very, very meaningful time with you.
Jovanni:Of course, we're very honored that you, that you came back
Jovanni:and, and, and spent some time with us and, uh, give us your analysis.
Jovanni:Um, all right.
Jovanni:Uh, thank you for joining us today and I hope To see you back
Jovanni:and, um, thank you, take care.
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