Episode 167

Healthcare and politics in Lebanon w/ Dr. Anis Germani - Ep 167

Published on: 23rd February, 2025

Jovanni and guest host Jake Tucker is joined by Dr. Anis Germani, a health policy specialist and activist from Lebanon, who provides an in-depth analysis of Lebanon's sectarian political system, the impact of its economic collapse, and the broader implications of regional conflicts. The discussion also delves into the use of depleted uranium by Israel, the situation in Palestine, the fall of the Assad regime in Syria, and the broader resistance against Zionism and western imperialism.

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Transcript
Don:

this is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan, Jo

Don:

vonni, Shiloh, Monisha , and Mike

Jovanni:

Welcome, everyone, to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about U. S. foreign

Jovanni:

policy, anti militarism, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war.

Jovanni:

I'm Jovanni, your host.

Jovanni:

Thank you for being with us today.

Jovanni:

Today I'm joined by Friends of the Show, Jake Tucker.

Jovanni:

Jake, how are you doing today?

Jake Tucker:

I'm doing well.

Jake Tucker:

Thanks for having me on.

Jovanni:

Awesome.

Jovanni:

Thank you for coming.

Jovanni:

Recent developments have shaped the West.

Jovanni:

And more specifically, the Levant region.

Jovanni:

Let's start with the ceasefire.

Jovanni:

The mighty Israeli war machine, after 15 months, has failed in

Jovanni:

defeating regional resistance forces, such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

Jovanni:

After 56 days of intense fighting, Israel's attempted incursion into southern

Jovanni:

Lebanon has come to a halt for now.

Jovanni:

The fragile truce follows weeks of clashes with Hezbollah and Israel's failure

Jovanni:

to gain approval in southern Lebanon.

Jovanni:

The conflict that trends spiral into a full scale regional war.

Jovanni:

But, pause?

Jovanni:

Or the calm before an even bigger storm.

Jovanni:

Meanwhile, in Gaza, a ceasefire has taken hold, broker, in the early

Jovanni:

days of Donald Trump's presidency.

Jovanni:

This agreement not only halted the Zionist onslaught on Palestinians, but

Jovanni:

also led to a historic prisoner exchange.

Jovanni:

The return of three captive female Israeli soldiers in exchange

Jovanni:

for 183 Palestinian captives.

Jovanni:

Held by Israel.

Jovanni:

While some call it a step towards peace, others sees it as another

Jovanni:

chapter in a never ending cycle of violence and negotiations.

Jovanni:

But the story doesn't end there.

Jovanni:

Syria, once a unified state, has fallen into chaos the Assad government has

Jovanni:

been overthrown after withstanding 12 gruesome years of a global dirty war

Jovanni:

now Damascus is under the control of former ISIS and Al Qaeda fighters.

Jovanni:

With former al Nusra commander Ahmed Hussein al Shar'a, also known as Muhammad

Jovanni:

al Juliani, taking over the presidency.

Jovanni:

In a stunning turn of events, Western, Russian, and Gulf Cooperation Council

Jovanni:

governments have been meeting with al Juliani to establish relations, signaling

Jovanni:

a dramatic shift in the geopolitical landscape and legitimizing an individual

Jovanni:

who belonged to an organization in the West has spent the last 25 years

Jovanni:

when you were against al Qaeda.

Jovanni:

Syria today is a patchwork of occupation and conflict.

Jovanni:

Israel, Turkey, and the United States have carved out their own zones of control,

Jovanni:

while various militia factions backed by these powers fight for dominance.

Jovanni:

In the north, U. S. backed Kurdish forces clash with Turkish backed militias.

Jovanni:

In other areas, Syrian ethnic minorities are being cleansed by forces allied

Jovanni:

with Al Julani adding another layer of violence to an already fractured nation.

Jovanni:

Meanwhile, Lebanon's Hezbollah continued to recover from the Israeli decapitation

Jovanni:

strike last September, which took out much of the senior leadership, including

Jovanni:

a much esteemed leader, Hassan Nasrallah.

Jovanni:

This attack was preceded by an Israeli mass attack.

Jovanni:

Using explosive pagers and cell phones that killed and injured thousands.

Jovanni:

On top of that, Lebanon has a new president, General Joseph Khalil Aoun.

Jovanni:

What does this mean in relations to Lebanese Israeli relations and

Jovanni:

Lebanese relations with the West?

Jovanni:

Lebanon has been under sanction for some years now and has affected

Jovanni:

its critical infrastructure.

Jovanni:

From the streets of Gaza to the hills of southern Lebanon, from the ruins

Jovanni:

of Syria to negotiation tables of global powers, this is a story of

Jovanni:

resilience, resistance, and reckoning.

Jovanni:

It's about the human cost of war, the politics of power, and the

Jovanni:

lines we draw in the sand, only to watch them be withdrawn with blood.

Jovanni:

Here to join us and speak more about the matter is Dr. Anis Juliani.

Jovanni:

Dr. Giuliani is a medical doctor, health policy specialist, and

Jovanni:

an activist based in Lebanon.

Jovanni:

His work revolves around social health protection, the political economy

Jovanni:

of health, and the integration of artificial intelligence into healthcare.

Jovanni:

Dr. Julani Dr. Germani, thank you for joining us today.

Jovanni:

How are you doing

Jovanni:

it's good to be here.

Jovanni:

Thank you.

Jovanni:

How are you guys?

Jovanni:

Doing well.

Jovanni:

Doing well.

Jovanni:

Dr. Speak to us about your work.

Doctor:

My work, it's mostly centered around, medicine and health policy.

Doctor:

I care about, the things that matter in the U.

Doctor:

S. Access to health care, insurance, affordable care,

Doctor:

universal health coverage.

Doctor:

Also the right of people to access this care, the economics.

Doctor:

The political economy that, makes sure that a lot of people are excluded from

Doctor:

accessing care or making it unaffordable.

Doctor:

This is mostly my work.

Doctor:

Obviously, I am drawn into the world of politics.

Doctor:

I've been an activist for many years now.

Doctor:

I take a particular interest, in Lebanon, since I am a Lebanese

Doctor:

citizen and I live here.

Doctor:

Once you delve into Lebanese politics, You cannot avoid geopolitics because

Doctor:

Lebanon is a field where, many powers, have influence, not just because,

Doctor:

Lebanon has a strategic value in the Levant, but also because of the nature

Doctor:

of the Lebanese system that makes sure that every leader in Lebanon has

Doctor:

a patron, which is a foreign power.

Doctor:

So from that perspective, mix a lot of things together.

Doctor:

There's the domestic and the foreign and they interact sometimes they

Doctor:

blow up, sometimes they stabilize the country despite, terrible circumstances.

Jovanni:

Speak to us a little bit more about that.

Jovanni:

What's the social fabric of Lebanon and its political structure?

Jovanni:

You just mentioned how each political actor is by, foreign actor, right?

Jovanni:

Go ahead.

Doctor:

So Lebanon follows a sectarian system.

Doctor:

There is a president, prime minister, parliament, cabinet, but the division

Doctor:

of these positions is based on sect.

Doctor:

For example, among Muslims, there's Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims, Christians,

Doctor:

Maronite, Orthodox, many sects in Lebanon and each, sect has a certain piece.

Doctor:

These are examples of the government.

Doctor:

For example, the President should be Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister

Doctor:

should be Muslim Sunni, and the Speaker of Parliament should be Muslim Shia.

Doctor:

This is one example of many because this also applies to everything

Doctor:

in public administration as well.

Doctor:

And also how you vote.

Doctor:

So you vote for the representative of your sect.

Doctor:

This obviously creates a lot of problems in Lebanon.

Doctor:

The structure of the system is based on stabilizing and upholding tensions.

Doctor:

So there always has to be sectarian tensions, but not

Doctor:

enough for it to blow up.

Doctor:

This, was established, during the civil war, particularly in the 1980s.

Doctor:

The civil war was from 75 until 91.

Doctor:

During the 80s, this is when the system took place.

Doctor:

You had the collaboration between financial interests, sectarian

Doctor:

interests and political interests.

Doctor:

Of course, sectarianism is not new, neither in Lebanon nor in the region.

Doctor:

It was something imposed during the colonial era, particularly during

Doctor:

the French mandate over Lebanon.

Doctor:

This also applied to all other countries of the region.

Doctor:

But Lebanon has a particular case.

Doctor:

Where you have many sects inside a small country, each a vehicle

Doctor:

for power and financial interests.

Doctor:

At the top tier, from a class perspective, the most powerful and the richest

Doctor:

people, do not, abide by sectarian rules.

Doctor:

Cultural divides.

Doctor:

You'll see them intermarrying, having business together, doing

Doctor:

whatever they want together.

Doctor:

They make deals.

Doctor:

Sometimes they fight, sometimes they don't.

Doctor:

For them, this is not a problem.

Doctor:

But for everybody else, there has to be a minimum of tensions to

Doctor:

justify, the legitimacy of the system.

Doctor:

We were led to believe, especially from the 80s onwards, that the only thing

Doctor:

keeping us from killing each other.

Doctor:

is the fact that we have the system where we divide, positions financial

Doctor:

interests and land, based on sects.

Doctor:

Of course, this is not true at all.

Doctor:

this is a fictitious, narrative to justify the system.

Doctor:

But for now, it is what it is.

Doctor:

in 2019, there was an economic collapse that basically disrupted one of

Doctor:

the core foundations of the system.

Doctor:

on one hand, when you divide, public administration by sects, you're not

Doctor:

doing it for the interest of the people.

Doctor:

of course, you also don't have always the best people in charge, and your

Doctor:

interests As somebody who is in charge from a certain sect, is not to

Doctor:

serve all of the Lebanese population, it is to serve a specific sect.

Doctor:

This creates huge problems when you're running it from one administration.

Doctor:

social services in Lebanon have always been a disaster.

Doctor:

They're insufficient, they're inaccessible.

Doctor:

But there was this compensation mechanism that was created whereby whenever a

Doctor:

certain person from a certain sect is in power, they would provide for the

Doctor:

people that are from their own sect.

Doctor:

However, in 2019, when the economic collapse happened, the ability for them

Doctor:

to do that was completely disrupted because they used to take public funds

Doctor:

to give their people, healthcare, jobs, education, all of the things that they

Doctor:

were supposed to have as citizens.

Doctor:

since then, Lebanon has been going through a very chaotic period.

Doctor:

The last five years were extremely chaotic, mainly due to the economic

Doctor:

collapse that has, undermined the social contract of Lebanon, and additional

Doctor:

crises that have made things worse.

Doctor:

we had the COVID pandemic.

Doctor:

In 2020, we had the August 4th, Port Blast that destroyed half of beirut.

Doctor:

And we recently had the war for the past year with Israel.

Doctor:

And it was also a very destructive war.

Doctor:

So now that all of these challenges have compounded, the situation is untenable.

Doctor:

It's evidenced by many things, migration is the first one.

Doctor:

since 2019, half a million people have left the country.

Doctor:

The businesses are down, the GDP has shrunk.

Doctor:

significantly, we were at 50 billion GDP before the crisis.

Doctor:

Now we're at around 18 billion So this is more than half of the GDP gone.

Doctor:

recently we've seen a rise in crime that is very alerting in Lebanon,

Doctor:

particularly also that has to do with, with Syria and the instability that's

Doctor:

happening there and the war itself.

Doctor:

So yeah, Lebanon is in a very tough place.

Doctor:

this is mainly due to the way the country is governed.

Doctor:

Not the people themselves, but the system, how it functions, how

Doctor:

people perceive power, how they perceive their own interests.

Doctor:

And yeah, for now, things are The way they are, there isn't much

Doctor:

contestation towards that, but at the same time, the situation is untenable.

Doctor:

I think people are very tired and also very broken, and this is why, for now,

Doctor:

things are, on a more stable path.

Doctor:

There are sanctions the effect of sanctions is not that pronounced.

Doctor:

in Lebanon there's two camps.

Doctor:

if you wanna boil it down, between these sects, you have the.

Doctor:

pro western camp and the pro resistance camp, but this is an oversimplification,

Doctor:

they will collaborate when the economic collapse happened and, the bankers turned

Doctor:

out to have, exploded people's money and wasted it for their own profit.

Doctor:

Because bankers are from all sects, you will see the pro resistance and

Doctor:

anti resistance camp collaborating together to make sure that their

Doctor:

financial interests are also secure.

Doctor:

So the thing about sanctions is that both camps promote this narrative

Doctor:

because it overshadows, the actual nature of the crisis the private banking

Doctor:

system ruined the Lebanese economy.

Doctor:

The sanctions narrative tells you something else.

Doctor:

the pro resistance camp says the U. S. imposing sanctions on Lebanon.

Doctor:

And therefore, this is why we have a crisis.

Doctor:

the anti resistance camp tells you it is because we have a

Doctor:

resistance that we have sanctions.

Doctor:

So we need to get rid of them to have a prosperous economy.

Doctor:

In both cases, both narratives are wrong.

Doctor:

Yes, there are sanctions, but they are not the cause of

Doctor:

Lebanon's economic difficulties.

Doctor:

one.

Doctor:

Simple example, to the contrary is that from the GDP that we have this

Doctor:

18 billion, we have between six billion that come from remittances.

Doctor:

this is a country where money keeps on coming in.

Doctor:

The idea is if we had sanctions, the money would not have been able to

Doctor:

come into Lebanon at all, and this would be the cause of our problem.

Doctor:

once you lift the sanctions, things would somewhat go back to normal.

Doctor:

In Lebanon's, case, money is still coming in.

Doctor:

the nature of the economic system is, a rentier economy that is not productive.

Doctor:

So we'll just waste whatever money comes in because we waste it on imports.

Doctor:

Lebanon produces absolutely nothing, like 90 percent of our food is imported.

Doctor:

the sanctions narrative should not be, the core of the diagnosis of

Doctor:

the crisis that happened in Lebanon.

Jake Tucker:

thank you for that.

Jake Tucker:

The question that it all makes me curious about, and maybe this takes in a very

Jake Tucker:

complicated direction, but what would be necessary to overcome this political and

Jake Tucker:

social situation, imposed over decades by, collaboration between, imperialism,

Jake Tucker:

colonialism the ruling class of Lebanon.

Doctor:

Yeah.

Doctor:

it has to be a massive overhaul.

Doctor:

simple solutions will not yield anything because this is almost

Doctor:

a century of collaboration, and that has seeped into the culture.

Doctor:

It's culturally how we perceive ourselves in Lebanon that has changed

Doctor:

over time because of these influences.

Doctor:

So definitely there has to be a different way of us perceiving, Lebanon.

Doctor:

We ourselves in Lebanon as citizens and how we perceive power and

Doctor:

the Lebanese entity as a unit.

Doctor:

this starts, by establishing a secular state that represents people as citizens,

Doctor:

that have rights, that have obligations, not as a conglomeration of sects.

Doctor:

This has to be the starting point.

Doctor:

And from that we can start diagnosing the situation.

Doctor:

We'll look at many things.

Doctor:

Of course, we'll have to look at the economy as, one of the.

Doctor:

Major priorities.

Doctor:

from that perspective, we'll see that, the banking system has failed.

Doctor:

It is completely bankrupt.

Doctor:

this is why, the bankers responsible for this crisis should be the ones

Doctor:

to, pay back the money that they have illegally taken and stolen.

Doctor:

At the same time, this will not be enough.

Doctor:

Of course, having a functioning banking sector is essential in a world of,

Doctor:

global capitalism, because this is how we communicate with the world economically.

Doctor:

But we also have to look at Lebanon on a global scale.

Doctor:

From an economic perspective, in terms of its sectors, what does Lebanon produce?

Doctor:

Today, the answer is almost nothing.

Doctor:

We have to launch, a huge reconstruction campaign of the infrastructure, not only

Doctor:

that was destroyed by the war, but also through neglect, years of austerity.

Doctor:

Since 1995, Lebanon has been under staunch austerity.

Doctor:

We need to invest in it a lot more.

Doctor:

this will create jobs.

Doctor:

We also need to develop specific sectors.

Doctor:

what does Lebanon want to we can do anything if we want to, if we want to

Doctor:

work in industry, we can, if we want to work in tech production, we could,

Doctor:

there has to be a will behind it, a political will to do it and a plan to

Doctor:

enact otherwise, nothing's gonna work.

Doctor:

Things do not happen.

Doctor:

Without a modicum of a plan.

Doctor:

Even the US that champions, liberal and open economies has certain plans.

Doctor:

So once they want to compete, for example, in AI with China, they will invest,

Doctor:

they will make sure that there's money, they'll give it to certain companies set

Doctor:

targets that they would like to reach.

Doctor:

Lebanon should be doing the same.

Doctor:

We can't just, wander through the wilderness and hope for somebody like

Doctor:

a country to give us money at some point, so that we could just extend the

Doctor:

lifespan of the system and waste this money on imports and do nothing with it.

Doctor:

Afterwards, we also have to, look at people's rights.

Doctor:

how can we legitimize the system?

Doctor:

If the system, perceives people as a citizen, it has to give people

Doctor:

healthcare, education, housing, jobs, all of these things to cement

Doctor:

stability not only in a country, but also in a region that has been

Doctor:

extremely divided by sectarian tensions.

Doctor:

I believe that Lebanon can be, an example of for other countries, most other

Doctor:

countries, are a bit more homogenous, for example, the Gulf countries,

Doctor:

they are religious states that their legitimacy relies on, on religion.

Doctor:

Lebanon is a mix of 17 to 18 different sects.

Doctor:

So we cannot have kind of, legitimacy.

Doctor:

However, all of the region requires a lot of things like economic stability,

Doctor:

prosperity, development, and these things can come from, the Lebanese system that

Doctor:

I imagine, at least, and it can radiate this kind of influence into the region.

Jake Tucker:

I think for everything you're speaking about the baseline

Jake Tucker:

is that Lebanon needs peace, without getting interrupted, Every handful

Jake Tucker:

of years by instability and war, Of course, this is absolutely a

Doctor:

prerequisite.

Jake Tucker:

Exactly.

Doctor:

if I just may say one thing, I completely agree that yes, there has

Doctor:

to be, peace and stability in Lebanon.

Doctor:

We cannot wait until the conflict in the region, the central problem which

Doctor:

is, Israel to be settled in order to do something or then we just wait, like

Doctor:

there's a lot of pressing issues in Lebanon that cannot wait, if we wait

Doctor:

until the Israel situation is resolved, Lebanon itself might disintegrate.

Doctor:

And then we will be something else.

Doctor:

We would become maybe something like Syria, a country on the verge

Doctor:

of being fragmented into pieces.

Doctor:

there's a balance between both.

Doctor:

some things can be done.

Doctor:

At the same time, speaking long term, prosperity and development and stability.

Doctor:

cannot be done as long as we have, a country at our border that, every

Doctor:

couple of years attacks the country and destroys its infrastructure and

Doctor:

also undermines it continuously.

Doctor:

We've seen in this war, the intel that they have gathered on

Doctor:

Lebanon is a process that has.

Doctor:

Taken at least a decade.

Doctor:

so yeah, I agree, but with some reservations.

Jovanni:

just to piggyback on that, and it's more of a benefit of our audience

Jovanni:

most of our audience here in the United States, Western is that Lebanon, like

Jovanni:

the countries in the region itself, they're operating under extreme pressures,

Jovanni:

they're trying to develop and they're trying to do the best they can under

Jovanni:

unnormal circumstances, things that people in the West can't really relate

Jovanni:

to because Our political system in the West and how things function in the West,

Jovanni:

they're operating on the pristine time.

Jovanni:

they're not under threat, they're not under war, they're not constantly

Jovanni:

invaded, they're not constantly being interrupted, not constantly being co

Jovanni:

opted, not constantly being cooled

Jovanni:

Whereas the countries in the region, in the Havana area, And a lot of

Jovanni:

global South countries, right?

Jovanni:

they're having to operate With small resources, with little bit of resources,

Jovanni:

they had to make the most of the resources they have, Under extreme

Jovanni:

pressures and extreme circumstances,

Jovanni:

Brought to them by the colonial enclave in the region, which is

Jovanni:

Israel, And outside powers, i. e. France, United States, Britain, etc.

Jovanni:

let me shift on this real quick.

Jovanni:

October 7 happened, the coalition of militia factions, in Gaza conducted

Jovanni:

a raid on a Israeli military installation, what they call the

Jovanni:

Gaza Envelope, Israel retaliated.

Jovanni:

And the next day, on October 9, the Lebanese resistance militia

Jovanni:

called Hezbollah announced they will inject themselves in the conflict

Jovanni:

also, to balance and pin, Israel.

Jovanni:

this evolved into.

Jovanni:

A tit for tat, a whole year between Israeli forces and Hezbollah

Jovanni:

forces Lebanon has an army.

Jovanni:

However, the army in Lebanon pretty much sat on the sidelines, and didn't

Jovanni:

react this evolved into a really intense war, towards the end of last year.

Jovanni:

It lasted about 56 days where the Israeli, first, started with a pager attack or a

Jovanni:

cell phone attack, Which killed hundreds of people and injured like 3, 000 people,

Jovanni:

that was followed by a capitation.

Jovanni:

campaign, that killed pretty much the top leadership of Hezbollah.

Jovanni:

Meanwhile, they were trying to invade the southern parts of

Jovanni:

Lebanon, which the Hezbollah fighters resisted and pushed back.

Jovanni:

how has this war, impacted the media Lebanese infrastructure, economy, social

Jovanni:

fabric, and its relations with Israel?

Doctor:

That's a very tough question.

Doctor:

I think we still have not, fully understood the scope

Doctor:

of the damage, in Lebanon.

Doctor:

the major reason for that is that Israel is continuously violating, the ceasefire.

Doctor:

So we're so far at like more than 1,500 Israeli violations of the ceasefire.

Doctor:

There are still, bombing, burning, blowing up houses roads and, land in the south.

Doctor:

in areas that they were supposed to leave.

Doctor:

And also they entered areas that they were not able to enter during

Doctor:

the war, but they were able to enter them during the ceasefire.

Doctor:

because Hezbollah was respecting the ceasefire and refused

Doctor:

to breach it in any way.

Doctor:

But Israel kept on advancing and is abusing the ceasefire was

Doctor:

extended until, February 18th.

Doctor:

for your Western audience, you might think that the extension of a

Doctor:

ceasefire is a good thing because, that means the war has ended.

Doctor:

But in the case of Lebanon, it's the opposite.

Doctor:

It means that Israel will have its impunity in South

Doctor:

Lebanon until February 18th.

Doctor:

So from that perspective, we still do not know the extent

Doctor:

of the damage in the South.

Doctor:

Second, we still do not know, once you relaunch this economy, and things go

Doctor:

back to quote unquote normal, a lot of people might have decided to leave.

Doctor:

We need hindsight to see if people have left or will leave in the

Doctor:

coming months as a result of the war.

Doctor:

Because I know for a fact that a lot of people, during

Doctor:

this war, have, lost all hope.

Doctor:

They are terrified.

Doctor:

And, also witnessed, a genocide at our border that has been

Doctor:

going on for more than a year.

Doctor:

this has terrified a lot of people.

Doctor:

some of them, just cannot deal with that anymore.

Doctor:

they also want to leave.

Doctor:

This is probably the gravest economic loss.

Doctor:

this is something we also cannot assess.

Doctor:

today.

Doctor:

Otherwise, there are some economic indicators, of course, that,

Doctor:

the GDP shrank and unemployment rose, poverty increased.

Doctor:

these things already happened and some businesses closed as well.

Doctor:

Whether or not they can recuperate is because this will depend on the

Doctor:

government that was formed yesterday.

Doctor:

we still haven't seen how the new government will

Doctor:

respond to all of this damage.

Doctor:

but they vowed that they will engage in reconstruction.

Doctor:

we're just in a very early phase.

Doctor:

to be able to tell.

Doctor:

I can tell you that, the mass migration that happened inside Lebanon, the extent

Doctor:

of the damage, particularly in South Lebanon from videos, pictures, from people

Doctor:

that went and told me, it is extreme.

Doctor:

And even though, Hezbollah is, trying to care for their people, dispersing funds

Doctor:

for reconstruction, they are not enough.

Doctor:

reconstruction requires effort, mustering a lot of people and state

Doctor:

capabilities that today are not present.

Doctor:

And the more, damage, there is the extent of the damage, but also the

Doctor:

duration in which it lasts that impacts the long term economy.

Doctor:

the longer these damages remain, the more, acute will be the long term.

Doctor:

consequences on the Lebanese economy.

Doctor:

So we'll have to wait and see, but the damages are quite severe.

Jovanni:

So I read this article that you wrote, Is Israel using

Jovanni:

deplete uranium to bomb Lebanon?

Jovanni:

You talk about, Israel potential use of uranium, bombs in the

Jovanni:

attack Lebanon and the lingering health effects that, Uranium.

Jovanni:

has the you also make examples with Iraq.

Jovanni:

Iraq was used, the peri Uranian by American forces and the health effects

Jovanni:

that has caused the Iraqi population.

Jovanni:

Now in the Iraqi population, you also mentioned in the article how that affected

Jovanni:

the American soldiers themselves, And how Israel also used it in the 2006 war.

Jovanni:

Can you elaborate more on that and the health risks behind it

Jovanni:

and the long term effect to the environment and to communities?

Doctor:

Yeah.

Doctor:

First, let me just start with, I guess to your audience the most shocking part.

Doctor:

during the bombing campaigns of Israel, particularly in the southern suburb

Doctor:

of Beirut, the Syndicate of Chemists in Lebanon raised an alarm and said

Doctor:

that Israel might have used depleted uranium and called for an investigation.

Doctor:

This investigation did happen.

Doctor:

At the time I wrote the article, the results were still not out, even though

Doctor:

they were supposed to have been Later on, the results came, they took samples

Doctor:

from specific strikes, particularly where Sayyid Nasrallah was martyred.

Doctor:

it turned out they didn't find, depleted uranium in these samples.

Doctor:

in the article, I also spoke to Elijah Minear.

Doctor:

a war correspondent and, expert on the topic.

Doctor:

he said these investigations are usually heavily politicized because,

Doctor:

documenting the fact that somebody used today can cause a lot of

Doctor:

problems, in the international scene.

Doctor:

so yeah, there's that.

Doctor:

Otherwise, I have already researched extensively the use of depleted

Doctor:

uranium in Iraq by US forces.

Doctor:

Funny enough, Israel was one of the first countries to test out the military

Doctor:

applications of depleted uranium.

Jovanni:

what you just said there is very important,

Jovanni:

Very critical about these documents and this investigation being.

Jovanni:

Politicized, you follow the reporting of Aaron Matte and others.

Jovanni:

When you talk about the chemical attacks in Syria, for example, when they did the

Jovanni:

When they did investigation initially, they point the finger at the Syrian

Jovanni:

government for launching the attack.

Jovanni:

Whistleblowers came out saying that when they wrote the report, they

Jovanni:

were under heavy pressure to point the finger at the Assad government.

Jovanni:

the initial report, placed the blame on the insurgents.

Jovanni:

just want to note that with, what you said about, politicizing reports.

Doctor:

that makes sense.

Doctor:

the thing about these issues is that, we will probably never have, an answer,

Doctor:

because taking a sample from a specific time, the specific area and making sure

Doctor:

that it's analyzed correctly and all that.

Doctor:

even if you decide at some point, okay, fine, There was a mistake in this.

Doctor:

Going back in retrospect and trying to identify whether or not some, use

Doctor:

of chemical or radioactive weapons was used at a certain point in time might

Doctor:

become more difficult in retrospect.

Doctor:

So yeah, unfortunately, these kinds of issues, we might never have clear

Doctor:

answers regarding These allegations.

Doctor:

but in the case of Iraq, I think it's a bit more interesting because the U. S. did

Doctor:

not deny that they used depleted uranium.

Doctor:

on the contrary.

Doctor:

And I don't know, if your audience might be aware of it, but depleted uranium,

Doctor:

is basically the garbage of uranium.

Doctor:

It's the stuff that we, Discard, once we purify uranium to use for

Doctor:

nuclear energy or atomic bombs this leftover is cheap because technically

Doctor:

it is garbage, and it has a very high density so it's excellent to make

Doctor:

armor and also armor piercing weapons.

Doctor:

Like tank shells and even bullets.

Doctor:

once you launch, a tank shell at a bunker, this ammunition hits the target and

Doctor:

then is able to pierce it and enter it.

Doctor:

And then it fragments into thousands of pieces of, some of it is dust, shrapnel.

Doctor:

And they all catch fire.

Doctor:

They incinerate instantaneously.

Doctor:

And whoever is inside will either die or will live.

Doctor:

by being, shredded by these pieces burned or by inhaling the dust.

Doctor:

depleted uranium is radioactive and emits alpha waves, not gamma waves, just alpha.

Doctor:

And these alpha waves, if they are outside of the body, they cannot penetrate it.

Doctor:

The skin is enough to protect you from alpha radiation.

Doctor:

However, if they are inhaled or inside of your body, either, through shrapnel

Doctor:

or ingested, the radioactivity will start to affect you They deposit in the kidneys

Doctor:

and then the liver and the bone marrow, and they cause a series of cancers.

Doctor:

This is how, the use of was identified in Iraq, through the

Doctor:

medical cases of the veterans that came back to the UK and the US.

Doctor:

they saw, a very high incidence of cancers among them.

Doctor:

They saw, congenital malformations or even infertility, their

Doctor:

children were born these congenital malformations, in Iraq as well.

Doctor:

Later on it was found.

Doctor:

There was a study done, in the late nineties, early two thousands.

Doctor:

the incidences of cancer among children is terrifying.

Doctor:

After The first Gulf War.

Doctor:

And also there's extensive documentation of congenital malformations in Iraq.

Doctor:

You see all sorts of malformations, kids being born with two heads,

Doctor:

two spines, no arms, no legs.

Doctor:

It's truly absolutely terrifying.

Doctor:

The problem with the use of plutonium Is that, first of all, it's half life.

Doctor:

the time that it takes for half of the quantity of depleted uranium to stop being

Doctor:

radioactive is at least 100 million years.

Doctor:

this is something that will probably outlast humanity.

Doctor:

This is the first problem.

Doctor:

The second problem is that this dust.

Doctor:

that is radioactive, spreads around.

Doctor:

It's carried by wind.

Doctor:

after Gulf War, a center in the UK that monitors radioactivity levels.

Doctor:

And they were able to detect a spike in radioactivity from the

Doctor:

use of depleted uranium in Iraq.

Doctor:

So the wind carried depleted uranium from Iraq to the UK.

Doctor:

This is how far it goes.

Doctor:

And then, it seeps into the soil, the water, plants, animals, humans, and

Doctor:

it's extremely costly to clean it up.

Doctor:

For example, during the first Gulf War, when Saddam invaded Kuwait and the U.

Doctor:

S. intervened, the U. S. used depleted uranium inside Kuwait,

Doctor:

their supposed ally at the time.

Doctor:

Then after the war was over, Kuwait demanded the U. S. clean up the depleted

Doctor:

uranium that they left it took them years and the U. S. kept denying it.

Doctor:

They said, no, it's too expensive.

Doctor:

We can't do it.

Doctor:

Eventually, they decided to do a limited cleanup operation.

Doctor:

They had to remove around 90 tons of sand.

Doctor:

I don't know how many, shrapnels and bullets, and they moved, I think, two

Doctor:

tanks, they buried them somewhere in the US, if I'm not mistaken, in Ohio.

Doctor:

despite people there protesting they forced them to hold, depleted uranium,

Doctor:

material inside the area they found, more tanks contaminated with depleted

Doctor:

uranium in Kuwait, wrapped them up in plastic and buried them in the desert.

Doctor:

Imagine wrapping depleted uranium in plastic and burying it in the

Doctor:

desert and then calling it a day.

Doctor:

We're like, okay, we're done here.

Doctor:

the use of these weapons is extremely dangerous.

Doctor:

if you open the NATO website and look at their entry on depleted uranium, you will

Doctor:

find a single entry that says, NATO is unable to verify whether or not, depleted

Doctor:

uranium causes negative health effects.

Doctor:

they do not deny that they use depleted uranium, but they deny the negative

Doctor:

health effects of, depleted, uranium.

Jake Tucker:

I appreciate that, explanation.

Jake Tucker:

for myself, and I think probably for much of our audience, we are familiar

Jake Tucker:

with, the use of depleted uranium and maybe even the health consequences of it.

Jake Tucker:

I first heard about it reading an article about, physicians in Fallujah, advising

Jake Tucker:

people not to have children, because of, issues with childbirth and deformities

Jake Tucker:

your description of the situation is being highly politicized, as Jovanni mentioned,

Jake Tucker:

the so called chemical attacks in Syria being heavily politicized in ways that

Jake Tucker:

have been, exposed by Aaron Maté and others I don't think we're surprised by

Jake Tucker:

this because, This is the freedom that, the might makes right, where the United

Jake Tucker:

States gets to criminally and illegally invade countries like Iraq, Afghanistan,

Jake Tucker:

and countless other places, and similarly, Israel gets to invade and commit mass

Jake Tucker:

war crimes in its region as well.

Jake Tucker:

we did want to go to Palestine and basically just talk about

Jake Tucker:

the genocide, for the most part.

Jake Tucker:

We're all on the same page here, but just for our audience, the situation

Jake Tucker:

in Palestine, do you believe the term genocide is applicable to the situation?

Jake Tucker:

and if so, what evidence supports this claim?

Doctor:

Around October 20th, 2023, I published an article.

Doctor:

I was following up on the health situation in Gaza from the very

Doctor:

beginning, and I called it Genocide Den.

Doctor:

It became extremely clear the moment Israel struck Al Ma'madani

Doctor:

Hospital, the first hospital.

Doctor:

With, this, thermobaric bomb that killed 300 people that were taking

Doctor:

shelter inside the hospital.

Doctor:

This was the first strike and everybody, was panicking.

Doctor:

And it was the litmus test that the world has failed.

Doctor:

they gave Israel a green light to target all other hospitals.

Doctor:

From that moment onwards, it was clear that it was a genocide.

Doctor:

and if you combine it with, I think it was Smotrich who said

Doctor:

it on October 8th, or 9th.

Doctor:

we're going to, have a tight siege on Gaza.

Doctor:

No food, no water, no electricity.

Doctor:

the intent is there.

Doctor:

the first test was the bombing of Al Ahly hospital the rest is history,

Doctor:

because it's only a year ago.

Doctor:

More interestingly, you can look at statements by, this Israeli general,

Doctor:

they call him an intellectual.

Doctor:

I am not sure what kind of metrics they're applying to this guy.

Doctor:

He wrote an op ed at some point early in the war, and he said that once all

Doctor:

of Hamas leaders and once they're all sick and they look at their children

Doctor:

and they're all sick, they're ridden by disease, then we'll win the war

Doctor:

because they'll just stop fighting.

Doctor:

They'll be too weak to fight and our army the IOF, it will be

Doctor:

very easy for them to fight them.

Doctor:

So he was promoting, a policy to enable the spread of disease inside Gaza.

Doctor:

Later on, that same guy, he's the one who also came up with the

Doctor:

plan to depopulate northern Gaza.

Doctor:

And he recommended, cutting off food completely so that everybody in the

Doctor:

north would leave and they would be able to annex northern Gaza.

Doctor:

Obviously, he failed.

Doctor:

But the promotion of the spread of diseases was an active policy.

Doctor:

And we've seen it.

Doctor:

at some point, and maybe even currently, everybody is sick in Gaza.

Doctor:

they have, respiratory diseases, gastrointestinal diseases, everybody

Doctor:

has had the flu and diarrhea, these things are extremely debilitating.

Doctor:

And once you combine disease with hunger, and wounds that can be even

Doctor:

the most basic wounds stop healing when you're sick, and you're malnourished.

Doctor:

So if somebody hits you with a small bullet, or if it grazes you, it will

Doctor:

never heal, it will get infected, it will get worse, and then you'll

Doctor:

die from a very simple wound, extrapolate this to a population of 2.

Doctor:

million people cramped in ever smaller areas.

Doctor:

when you see that, for example, it's enough to think about the

Doctor:

bodies, at least 70, 000, if not, more you had 70, 000 bodies rotting

Doctor:

away at the same time among people.

Doctor:

in these very small quarters, what about the garbage?

Doctor:

humans, when you're alive, you consume things, you produce garbage.

Doctor:

back before October 7th, you had all of the border area of Gaza,

Doctor:

where they would bury the garbage.

Doctor:

After that, Israel stopped anybody from getting close to the barrier

Doctor:

So they had to, throw the garbage wherever they are.

Doctor:

So they're exposed to garbage.

Doctor:

you had also all of the sewage.

Doctor:

people are still alive.

Doctor:

They produce, feces and urine.

Doctor:

this went into where people were living, like in their

Doctor:

tents and across the streets.

Doctor:

it is truly horrific to see what has been done to Palestinians.

Doctor:

I don't think it has been done anywhere, and to this magnitude.

Doctor:

And then I am terrified to think about the future.

Doctor:

this is such a dangerous precedent, we have no idea what's coming really.

Doctor:

I have never seen a specific deliberate targeting of health infrastructure,

Doctor:

of healthcare professionals, of every infrastructure or every factor that

Doctor:

makes life a possibility on earth be reduced to dust and targeted on purpose.

Doctor:

And this is truly something that we will have to reckon with as humanity.

Doctor:

The fact that the West remained silent, while this genocide was

Doctor:

being perpetrated, this is something that they will have to reckon with.

Doctor:

And now the US administration and Trump are gearing up for war with China from

Doctor:

what we're seeing, I don't think they truly understand what they've done.

Doctor:

They have given all of their enemies a carte blanche because whatever anyone

Doctor:

does will always be compared to what has been done to Gaza and nothing,

Doctor:

I assure you, nothing will come close to what has happened to Gaza.

Jovanni:

Yeah, I have two thoughts.

Jovanni:

a lot of people in the audience, people in the West, here in the

Jovanni:

United States, they will look at what happened in Gaza and Palestine

Jovanni:

pretty much for the last 75, 76 years.

Jovanni:

And their cop out is it's complicated.

Jovanni:

It's too complicated.

Jovanni:

I encourage those to see this, from the lens of American history.

Jovanni:

what you described, did happen in American history with its indigenous population,

Jovanni:

cutting off the food source, particularly the plain wars against Indians, where

Jovanni:

their food source was the buffalo, they pretty much exterminated the buffalo

Jovanni:

to cut them off from the food source,

Doctor:

The promotion of diseases with the food.

Jovanni:

the selling of garments, infected with smallpox, to kill off the

Jovanni:

population, indigenous population that relied on agriculture, they set their

Jovanni:

agriculture on fire, scorched earth, so they be able to feed themselves

Jovanni:

and contaminate the water and stuff.

Jovanni:

so a lot of things that Israel is doing now, is pretty much cosplay to what

Jovanni:

was done here in the Americas to the Native people here, and so if you see it

Jovanni:

from that lens, because we already know that history, if you see it from that

Jovanni:

lens, it shouldn't be too complicated to understand what's happening in

Jovanni:

Palestine with this Israeli colonists.

Jovanni:

Another thought I had you mentioned, the West, the silence of the West, the

Jovanni:

silence of the international community, I hear that a lot, I disagree on that

Jovanni:

because they weren't silenced, they were actually active participants, right?

Jovanni:

They were actively promoting it, actively, pushing for it.

Jovanni:

Donald Trump just came in saying that he'll stop the war they did broker

Jovanni:

that ceasefire, Within the first days of his presidency, but at the same

Jovanni:

time, he just sent $1 billion worth of munitions to Israel, right after that.

Jovanni:

so it is not silent.

Jovanni:

the collective voices actually complicit actively participant.

Jovanni:

And not only that, they will silence.

Jovanni:

Anyone else bring in the rule law for example, South

Jovanni:

Africa and others, the judges.

Jovanni:

The judicials from the, ICJ and ICC, threatening, even the

Doctor:

domestic opposition as well.

Jovanni:

threatening with sanctions sanctioning the

Jovanni:

judges and stuff like that.

Jovanni:

there were no signs, they were what was happening, and they were pushing for

Jovanni:

it, and there's more related to that.

Jovanni:

the Palestinians, there's more to it than why they were so actively and giddy,

Jovanni:

Germany, for example, was very giddy about supporting, the Israeli, they

Jovanni:

were like the second, Germany after the United States is the second state to

Jovanni:

finance and equip the Israeli military, which is interesting because everything

Jovanni:

falls back to October 7th, right?

Jovanni:

They keep saying October 7th is the worst.

Jovanni:

Attacks against Jews since the Holocaust, et cetera, right?

Jovanni:

But if you saw what came later, the Israeli defense minister, Yoav Galant,

Jovanni:

just admitted, days ago, the Hannibal Directive, was applied, towards them.

Jovanni:

the Hannibal Directive, is that they would, avoid, the enemy any

Jovanni:

captives by killing the captives.

Jovanni:

by killing their own people before, they allow the enemy take, Israeli soldiers

Jovanni:

captive they would kill their soldiers first, That the, response to October 7th,

Jovanni:

Israeli military came in gun blazing and they used the, directive, implying that

Jovanni:

much of the Israeli civilians that were killed that night were killed by the

Jovanni:

Israeli military, your thoughts on that.

Doctor:

It's something that has been, discussed extensively, I don't know

Doctor:

if you remember back around those days when we looked at the charred

Doctor:

cars and bodies, and then we looked at Palestinians and the fighters who had,

Doctor:

machine guns, and we're like, how were they able to inflict this kind of damage?

Doctor:

This is not, we look at their weapons and we look at the damage

Doctor:

and they're completely incompatible.

Doctor:

Then, of course, it goes back always to one thing, we've touched on it

Doctor:

earlier, and that is that the West always has these, atrocity narratives

Doctor:

that have to be manufactured in order to justify imperialist wars.

Doctor:

The difference between, you're comparing, the history of the US

Doctor:

to what's happening in Palestine.

Doctor:

And it's true, but with only one difference that, contrary to the

Doctor:

colonization of the Americas, by Europeans They almost eradicated more than 90

Doctor:

percent of the indigenous population.

Doctor:

The only difference is that in Palestine, the other European settlers failed to

Doctor:

accomplish that they're at 50 50 in terms of the population white settlers

Doctor:

versus indigenous people, we're at 50%.

Doctor:

And this is not a sustainable, statistic for colonization.

Doctor:

Because, it implies a lot of dangers, things that Israel realizes, and this is

Doctor:

why they engaged in a massive campaign of genocide the policy of genocide

Doctor:

happened out of a vacuum is ridiculous.

Doctor:

This is something that is also planned.

Doctor:

the amount of preparation required, of hatred that has to be stoked in the heart

Doctor:

of people, of soldiers, to be able to carry out, this massive destruction of

Doctor:

people living in a small enclave of land.

Doctor:

takes preparation.

Doctor:

This is not something that happens out of nowhere.

Doctor:

you require an atrocity narrative like 40 beheaded babies or massive

Doctor:

rapes that still haven't been proven or putting kids in an oven.

Doctor:

the global south knows these atrocity narratives because

Doctor:

they've experienced them.

Doctor:

They are the ones who experienced colonization.

Doctor:

So we're very familiar with these stories because we've experienced them ourselves.

Doctor:

And our ancestors have documented some of these stories.

Doctor:

So yes, of course, this was targeted.

Doctor:

the manufacturing of these atrocity narratives, the

Doctor:

target audience was not us.

Doctor:

It was not the Global South, obviously.

Doctor:

it was the West.

Doctor:

And it was particularly Europe and the United States, in order for them to

Doctor:

quell, not even to convince the leaders, but to quell the domestic opposition,

Doctor:

to give ammo for the oligarchy of these countries to suppress their own people

Doctor:

as they, as you said earlier, to enable and carry out also themselves genocide.

Doctor:

And then you'll see that, it was not just the US, it was also the UK continuously

Doctor:

flying flights and surveillance.

Doctor:

There was France and Germany that sent also warships.

Doctor:

to the Middle East.

Doctor:

one of them, by the way, even Germany participates in the patrolling of

Doctor:

the seas with the UN, in Lebanon.

Doctor:

At some point during the war, Israel entered, Lebanese territory in Batroun.

Doctor:

This is in Northern Lebanon, even above Beirut.

Doctor:

they entered with a boat.

Doctor:

and kidnapped a Lebanese citizen from Batroun.

Doctor:

And it is said at a time that the German ship.

Doctor:

from the UN that was supposed to be patrolling the seas, stepped aside to

Doctor:

allow Israelis to kidnap somebody from Lebanese territory and then get out.

Doctor:

We still don't know what happened to this man, by the way, I think he

Doctor:

was studying to become, a pilot of a ship but we still have no idea.

Doctor:

You'll find that everybody is actively participating in it and this

Doctor:

atrocity narrative is something that they're concocting for themselves.

Doctor:

It is not convincing the world, especially not the Global South that is, very well

Doctor:

experienced with Western imperial tactics.

Jake Tucker:

thank you for that.

Jake Tucker:

I think that's a perfect segue into broadening it out

Jake Tucker:

into the region a little bit.

Jake Tucker:

the last time I was on this program with Jovanni was in the wake of the

Jake Tucker:

fall of Damascus, this past November.

Jake Tucker:

we both found it, incredibly frustrating that people we've been organizing with,

Jake Tucker:

in support of Palestine, were cheering the fall of the Syrian government.

Jake Tucker:

my assessment was that the situation falls on the pro Palestinian movement

Jake Tucker:

in the United States, which correctly described the genocide and called

Jake Tucker:

for the end of US support for Israel.

Jake Tucker:

But these movements fail to discuss and educate about the broader resistance

Jake Tucker:

against Zionism and Western imperialism, the so called axis of resistance.

Jake Tucker:

And they fail to situate these forces within the struggle for

Jake Tucker:

Palestinian liberation and then the liberation of the region more

Jake Tucker:

broadly from Zionism and imperialism.

Jake Tucker:

So how should pro Palestine activists in the West understand

Jake Tucker:

this axis of resistance, the struggle for a liberated Palestine?

Jake Tucker:

As well as the struggle for a region free from the violence and domination

Jake Tucker:

of the Zionist imperialist alliance.

Doctor:

Of course the notion of the axis of resistance came as a term, in

Doctor:

reaction to George Bush's axis of evil.

Doctor:

It's just, a narrative.

Doctor:

It's not really a thing that is real.

Doctor:

And of course, over time, the term started to carry more weight.

Doctor:

it was put to the test, with the genocide in Gaza, and we saw that, Yemen and

Doctor:

Lebanon, and Syria participated in trying to stop Israel from committing

Doctor:

genocide at different rates, different forms of participation and all that.

Doctor:

However, today with the fall of, the Assad regime in Syria, we see the collapse of

Doctor:

the axis, but not in the sense That, the pro Western, pro Israel people would like

Doctor:

to see it as if, all of it has collapsed.

Doctor:

This is not true.

Doctor:

we have to look back at how this axis was formed.

Doctor:

these are, semi autonomous units of people that resisted Western

Doctor:

imperialism in one form or another, and they received support from Iran.

Doctor:

Iran did not.

Doctor:

connect them with each other.

Doctor:

Qasem Soleimani did work a bit on that for a while, but it was mostly

Doctor:

about supporting them wherever they are in their own areas.

Doctor:

this was basically Iran's foreign policy goal of keeping conflict outside

Doctor:

of Iran after its war in the 80s.

Doctor:

So from that perspective, yes, that the units are still there.

Doctor:

And to think that, for example, the fall of the, Asad government in Syria,

Doctor:

did knock out, a core part of this in the sense that, weapons came through

Doctor:

Syria to Palestine and Lebanon.

Doctor:

But they still are.

Doctor:

That's the thing.

Doctor:

And today, yes, we have, Jolani the ex. Deputy ISIS leader in charge of

Doctor:

Syria, but to think that he emulates the power of the previous regime would

Doctor:

be a big misdiagnosis of the situation.

Doctor:

He's maybe in charge of Aleppo and Damascus, but

Doctor:

Syria is far bigger than that.

Doctor:

And today there's a lot of contestation happening against him.

Doctor:

It was more of a circumstantial alliance between him and 50 or 60 other Islamist

Doctor:

groups that took him to power, and of course, the collapse of the Syrian

Doctor:

regime there's also a lot to be said about how Assad ran the country.

Doctor:

The country and how he spent his time, the time where there was no active warfare

Doctor:

and he did not reinforce neither his military nor his regime, his relationship

Doctor:

to his people nor even with the resistance because we also saw that there were plans

Doctor:

to use the Joulan as another front to attack Israel Bashar al Assad might have

Doctor:

prohibited the resistance from using this area, because he was promised by Gulf

Doctor:

countries, the UAE specifically, that if he doesn't do that, there might be some

Doctor:

form of rapprochement, between them.

Doctor:

Of course, this was all, a lie and a mistake on his part, it doesn't change

Doctor:

the fact today that Syria is not the Syria pre 2011 in the hands of, ex ISIS people.

Doctor:

Syria is a country that has been ravaged by war with more than a

Doctor:

trillion dollars worth of losses, mass migration outside of the country.

Doctor:

It is fragmented even from a, it's something a bit like that reminds

Doctor:

me a bit of the Lebanese civil war.

Doctor:

So you have in the south, the Jewish population, Sunni population.

Doctor:

These people are almost at war with each other.

Doctor:

They also want to become semi independent entities.

Doctor:

You have the Kurds in the north.

Doctor:

You have the National Syrian Army that Turkey established, not to be

Doctor:

confused with the Syrian Arab Army.

Doctor:

Turkey combined together, I think 30 Islamist groups into one.

Doctor:

It called it the Syrian National Army.

Doctor:

that was supposedly an ally of.

Doctor:

Julani and they pushed into Aleppo.

Doctor:

as soon as they took Aleppo, problems started between each other.

Doctor:

now this army is attacking the Kurds.

Doctor:

Giuliani doesn't want to attack the Kurds because he wants to please the Americans.

Doctor:

It's a complete mess.

Doctor:

The whole thing is a complete mess.

Doctor:

it is something along the lines of Libya, but different in the sense that

Doctor:

it's not going to be split in two, maybe into many different, pieces.

Doctor:

And we still don't know how it's going to go because, Jolani walked to Damascus.

Doctor:

Jolani did not defeat the Syrian Arab army.

Doctor:

It just decided not to fight because they were exhausted, underpaid, and sick

Doctor:

of the status quo that was untenable.

Doctor:

this is, his biggest problem, that this guy does not have, legitimacy

Doctor:

by power through sheer force.

Doctor:

in Syria.

Doctor:

So today, anybody that looks at Jovanni might have the same,

Doctor:

realization that if this guy did it, he just walked to Damascus.

Doctor:

Why can't I just walk to Damascus and be the next guy in charge?

Doctor:

I think all of them are quite ambitious.

Doctor:

Any leader of any faction, however small or big, is ambitious to try and have his

Doctor:

own, attempt at taking control of Syria.

Doctor:

But at the same time, regionally speaking, there's a lot of

Doctor:

problems that are brewing.

Doctor:

So first of all, Turkey and Qatar, as sponsors of Julani are the ones that

Doctor:

basically now have dominance over Syria.

Doctor:

this does not please Saudi Arabia, nor does it please the UAE.

Doctor:

And these people will definitely try their best to undermine the rise

Doctor:

of Turkey as an even more powerful regional player, because it undermines

Doctor:

their position in the region.

Doctor:

if you look at Julani he's in quite the pickle.

Doctor:

he needs to please the West, because he needs the sanctions

Doctor:

to be lifted from Syria.

Doctor:

Without lifting them, he cannot do anything.

Doctor:

the same sanctions that destroyed, Bashar Assad's ability to do anything

Doctor:

in Syria will destroy Jovanni as well.

Doctor:

Second, he has to please the Turks because they are the ones that supported him.

Doctor:

And what they want is to extract as much as possible from Syria.

Doctor:

they already flooded the market with their products.

Doctor:

They're expanding with military bases.

Doctor:

They want to be there because, Syria could be the crown jewel for

Doctor:

Turkey's expansionist, ambitions.

Doctor:

he wants to please the Gulf as well because this is where the

Doctor:

money for reconstruction is.

Doctor:

these guys don't want to see him succeed because if he succeeds, Turkey succeeds.

Doctor:

He needs to please everyone.

Doctor:

worst of all is domestically.

Doctor:

this guy is in charge of radical Salafi Islamist groups.

Doctor:

these guys have a very strict notion of how things should be going in the country.

Doctor:

So you cannot please all of them,

Doctor:

Previous, regional powers and your own people at the same time.

Doctor:

You can't please the West and the Islamists of ISIS at the same time.

Doctor:

These people want very different things.

Doctor:

So in the end, this is truly a recipe for chaos.

Doctor:

And I think one of his biggest mistakes, Jolani, strictly from,

Doctor:

an intellectual observation.

Doctor:

you cannot be in charge of the country and try to please everyone.

Doctor:

You have to make a choice.

Doctor:

And this guy is refusing to make a choice.

Doctor:

And at the same time, he's behaving as if he is controlling all of Syria.

Doctor:

pre 2011, Syria, which is a myth.

Doctor:

the guy is in charge of a few cities that's about it

Doctor:

For example, the Jews in southern Syria who are armed and very well armed,

Doctor:

refuse to let go of their weapons.

Doctor:

And, Israel is also promoting some narratives of, oh yeah, we can have

Doctor:

a J country on our, northern border.

Doctor:

It would be good for us and maybe another smaller Sunni country and like another

Doctor:

one, in the north of Syria will divide it and we'll give it to the alloys.

Doctor:

that's, this is a problem.

Doctor:

The guy is definitely in over his head.

Doctor:

And at the same time, he's also embarked on a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Homs.

Doctor:

a couple weeks ago, they launched a campaign where they started butchering

Doctor:

and killing a lot of Alawites and Shia.

Doctor:

Five days ago, they reached the border town between Lebanon and Syria.

Doctor:

We don't know the borders are a bit blurry.

Doctor:

You have villages that are part in Syria, part in Lebanon, and they're mixed.

Doctor:

So you have, families of Lebanese and Syrians.

Doctor:

It's unknown which is which.

Doctor:

they go into one of these villages in the northern Bekaa region of Lebanon, and

Doctor:

they kidnapped 14 people, mostly women.

Doctor:

it turns out that these people were Lebanese citizens, and belonged to a

Doctor:

very well armed tribe in the Bekaa.

Doctor:

then they started pushing forward beyond this village into Lebanese territory.

Doctor:

And then this tribe in the Bekaa kidnaps these HTS fighters and

Doctor:

exchanges them for the 14 Lebanese citizens that they kidnapped.

Doctor:

today, It's not announced but we're at war with Syria.

Doctor:

Now there's been for the past five days, there is a huge battle taking

Doctor:

place in northern Bekaa between the tribes of the Bekaa and apparently

Doctor:

seems to be taking quite the hits.

Doctor:

they're using ATGMs, they're using drones, and these tribesmen are

Doctor:

dropping their drones to the ground.

Doctor:

did not come to Lebanon, but he sent a few messages to Lebanese officials that yes,

Doctor:

we want to have a good relationship with you an equal relationship and all that.

Doctor:

the president called him, I think two days ago, in order to

Doctor:

calm things down at the border.

Doctor:

Yesterday, things escalated further.

Doctor:

Today, the battle is still going on as we speak, this means one of two things.

Doctor:

Either Jolani has no control at all over these people, or he's at war with Lebanon.

Doctor:

In both cases, it's not good for him.

Doctor:

We're still talking strictly about the tribes in northern Bekaa.

Doctor:

Hezbollah is not involved in this yet at all.

Doctor:

and there's this joke that we use in Lebanon that even Hezbollah does

Doctor:

not mess around with these tribes.

Doctor:

Because, they're very tough.

Doctor:

Yeah, this is the situation of Syria and it's a complete disaster.

Doctor:

But this does not mean that when, going back to Palestine, The thing

Doctor:

that we lack in the region is a program for the people of the region.

Doctor:

How can we combine, a vision of how we're supposed to be living

Doctor:

in this region beyond sectarianism and imperialism, beyond us being

Doctor:

client states of Western powers.

Doctor:

this is, I think the core issue in the region.

Doctor:

we might find, that the answer is not through these artificially drawn borders.

Doctor:

examples of Sykes Picot that were drawn by foreign powers, also the

Doctor:

demarcated Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and all of these, and even Palestine.

Doctor:

We still have a lot of work to do, but we do not have to be silent when something

Doctor:

is wrong, like when we see that there is people living in dire circumstances.

Doctor:

We do not say that, okay, yes, we're going to be silent, on the plight of the Syrian

Doctor:

people for the sake of Palestinians.

Doctor:

At the same time, we do not say the real opposition and freedom

Doctor:

for the Syrian people will come from the ex deputy leader of ISIS.

Doctor:

we have to be rational about this.

Doctor:

there's something about, what happened in Syria, that, always seems to reinvigorate

Doctor:

sectarian divides in the region.

Doctor:

From 2011 until today, whenever you find these moments of unity in the

Doctor:

region, You have Syria back on the table and everybody's divided again.

Doctor:

and for some reason people are not rational about Syria.

Doctor:

I truly don't have an answer to that, I don't know why, but people

Doctor:

are just not rational about it.

Doctor:

when you look at, Giuliani and his amazing CV in terrorism, and the videos

Doctor:

that his group has recorded of, burning, A Jordanian pilot and even taking the

Doctor:

border area between Lebanon and Syria.

Doctor:

then they kidnapped 20 Lebanese soldiers.

Doctor:

Some of them were beheaded.

Doctor:

Hezbollah defeated them to get them back.

Doctor:

And the videos from Idlib as well with other people being killed in the streets,

Doctor:

women being killed for, cheating on their husbands, allegedly, this is not the

Doctor:

guy that will bring freedom to anybody.

Doctor:

this guy is a disaster.

Doctor:

and he dedicated his entire life.

Doctor:

For that, you think that now that he's in charge of Syria, things

Doctor:

are going to turn for the better?

Doctor:

He's going to, go to therapy and realize he was mistaken this whole

Doctor:

time and become a better person?

Doctor:

this is an abusive relationship.

Jovanni:

That's what he said when he was interviewing CNN, they

Jovanni:

say he became a better person.

Jovanni:

He said that was mistakes of his youth, right?

Jovanni:

brought into his government, one of the persons accused of, beheading

Jovanni:

that 14-year-old Palestinian boy.

Jovanni:

that reminds me of what you just said about, the project that the West Asia

Jovanni:

needs remind me of what the first secretary of NATO, Lord, Ismay said,

Jovanni:

back in Europe when NATO was formed, is that the functions of NATO to keep the

Jovanni:

Soviets out of Europe, keep the Americans in Europe, keep the Germans down.

Jovanni:

What's happening in Lebanon, in the Gulf States and pretty much West Asia,

Jovanni:

is similar the Americans are in, the Iranians and the Russians are out, and

Jovanni:

the Arabs are down, pretty much the same mindset that I see here and instead

Jovanni:

of NATO, they use Israel for that.

Jovanni:

yeah, any comments before?

Jovanni:

that Mark.

Doctor:

I would just say that there's much change coming to the region.

Doctor:

I think, from a geopolitical perspective, with Trump's attention turning to China

Doctor:

and making all of his statements, around Mexico, Canada Greenland and Panama,

Doctor:

yes, okay, some people interpret them as the ravings of the madman, but I look at

Doctor:

him and I see a man gearing up for war.

Doctor:

And he's up for war with Russia and China.

Doctor:

So from that perspective, from somebody who lives in the Middle East, I am

Doctor:

not too concerned by these changes.

Doctor:

the shift that's happening to another hemisphere of the world,

Doctor:

I'm personally fine with that, because we could use a break.

Doctor:

this kind of break as well will imply a lot of changes.

Doctor:

There's a lot of governments and regimes in the region that were

Doctor:

positioned to please, the Americans and are contingent on the American

Doctor:

presence and attention on the region.

Doctor:

A lot of these regimes might collapse.

Doctor:

we're sensing their anguish already.

Doctor:

For example, Jordan and Egypt, are terrified now that, Israel

Doctor:

wants to push out Palestinians into their own, territories.

Doctor:

the Gulf is trying to reconfigure itself.

Doctor:

the Gulf is not, that subservient, anymore.

Doctor:

for example, today or yesterday when Israel said, oh yeah, we'll just send

Doctor:

the Palestinians to Saudi Arabia.

Doctor:

all of the Arab countries are coming out in condemnation and saying,

Doctor:

Hell no.

Doctor:

And because also, the Gulf has invested a lot of money into their own development.

Doctor:

And I don't think they are that willing, to sacrifice all of that, to set it all

Doctor:

on fire just for the sake of Israel.

Doctor:

There's also limits to how much you can push, a project that truly doesn't

Doctor:

seem to be progressing anywhere.

Doctor:

Like the more time passes on the Zionist project, the more you see

Doctor:

like you're back to square one.

Doctor:

So from a strictly, business understanding, You keep putting money

Doctor:

and resources into this project.

Doctor:

This project is not working.

Doctor:

You keep sacrificing things, your position, your reputation, how

Doctor:

people perceive you as a country, the diplomatic relationships for the sake

Doctor:

of this project is still not working.

Doctor:

So at some point, somebody is going to be like, this is enough,

Doctor:

And

Doctor:

already a lot of people are saying this is enough from a moral perspective.

Doctor:

Politically, they're saying it and economically also.

Doctor:

And I think that the moment we hit the economic, perception of how costly

Doctor:

the Zionist project is becoming.

Doctor:

This is how all empires, all of the Western empires have fallen.

Doctor:

It always boils down to money.

Doctor:

And when it's not profitable anymore, they just dropped it.

Doctor:

This is how India was freed.

Doctor:

This is how most of the global South was freed, when occupation

Doctor:

became just too costly.

Jake Tucker:

yeah, it's I think we've seen it basically since, World War II at least.

Jake Tucker:

the days of colonialism are over.

Jake Tucker:

there are vestiges that are still, present.

Jake Tucker:

And, neocolonialism is another form.

Jake Tucker:

but these, the, like we've seen time and time again, both

Jake Tucker:

the United States, Israel.

Jake Tucker:

they're able to destroy, but they're unable to actually win.

Jake Tucker:

They're unable to maintain an occupation, and, this has been

Jake Tucker:

the case for a long time now.

Jake Tucker:

I completely agree that there are changes coming.

Jake Tucker:

And, the Anachronistic character of this situation is coming

Jake Tucker:

to a head with reality.

Jovanni:

I think this is a good place to wrap up for the day.

Jovanni:

Dr. Jeremiah, thank you so much for coming onto the show, spending some of your

Jovanni:

time with us and sharing your thoughts.

Doctor:

My pleasure.

Jovanni:

Any last thoughts before we depart?

Doctor:

I think, as bleak as everything is, because it's not just like

Doctor:

how it looks, I think there will definitely be better days ahead.

Doctor:

we just have to, keep a cool mind and honor the martyrs by, learning from

Doctor:

the lessons we've all witnessed and making sure these things do not happen

Doctor:

again and steer, the path of history.

Doctor:

to a better outcome, I do not agree that, the arc of history bends towards justice.

Doctor:

It is the people that bends it towards justice.

Jovanni:

Indeed.

Jovanni:

Absolutely.

Jovanni:

Jake, any thoughts before we depart?

Jake Tucker:

No, I just really appreciate this discussion, Dr. Giovanni.

Jake Tucker:

I learned a lot thank you, Giovanni, for the invite.

Jake Tucker:

always a pleasure being on the program.

Jovanni:

Appreciate you coming in.

Jovanni:

thank you for joining us today.

Jovanni:

today is February the 9th, 2025.

Jovanni:

like us, subscribe to our channel, to our YouTube channels, on X and Telegram.

Jovanni:

And listen for us in any of your podcast platforms that you, that you listen.

Jovanni:

Please share us with your friends, help us grow.

Jovanni:

Stay tuned for our next episode.

Jovanni:

Take care,

Henri:

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About the Podcast

Fortress On A Hill (FOH) Podcast
Clearing away the BS around U.S. foreign policy, anti-imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war
The United States has become synonymous with empire and endless war, American troops sit in 70% of the world's countries, and yet, most Americans don't know that. The military is joined disproportionately by a 'warrior caste’ whom carry this enormous burden, making a less diverse force and ensuring most of society doesn't see their sacrifice. And American tax dollars, funding hundreds of billions in unnecessary spending on global hegemony, are robbed from the domestic needs of ordinary Americans. We aim to change that. Join Henri, Keagan, Jovanni, Shiloh, and Monisha, six leftist US military veterans, as they discuss how to turn the tide against endless war and repair the damage America has caused abroad.

About your host

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Christopher Henrikson

Chris ‘Henri’ Henrikson is an Iraq war veteran from Portland, OR. He deployed in support of
Operation Noble Eagle at the Pentagon following 9/11 and served two tours in Iraq in
support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. A former MP team leader, Henri also served two years
as a CID drug investigator. Now a journalist, podcaster, writer, and anti-war activist, Henri
no longer supports the lies of imperialism or the PR spin of the politicians, wherever the
source. He seeks to make common cause with anyone tired of jingoistic-driven death
from the American war machine and a desire to protect the innocents of the earth, no
matter their origin. Except Alex Jones. Fuck that guy. Follow him on Twitter at
@henrihateswar. Email him at henri@fortressonahill.com.