Episode 160

The hard truth of being a journalist covering Palestine w/ Xelena González - Ep 160

Published on: 9th September, 2024

Jovanni hosts journalist and author Xelena González, to discuss her experiences in Palestine, performing anti-war plays and meeting Palestinian-American diaspora folks in San Antonio, and the personal backlash she’s received as a journalist covering the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Xelena González is a journalist graduating from Northwestern University with a bachelor's degree in journalism. Now she is an author of children's books, poet, storyteller, essayist, and creator of the curative card deck Lotería Remedios.  She conducts workshops on radical self love in other disciplines. Selena has received numerous awards for her books, such as the Tomás Rivera Mexican American Children's Book Award, the American Indian Youth Literature Honor Award, and the Pura Belpré Illustrator Award.

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Transcript
Don:

This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan,

Don:

Jo vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha

Jovanni:

Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

foreign policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war.

Jovanni:

I'm Jovanni, your host.

Jovanni:

Thank you for being with us today.

Jovanni:

I came across the Palestinian struggle by the news coverage of the Second

Jovanni:

Intifada, which began in September 2000.

Jovanni:

The intense media focus on the uprising exposed me to the complexity

Jovanni:

of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

Jovanni:

This was followed by the 9 11 attacks in 2001, and I saw how the

Jovanni:

Israeli narrative of the Palestinian resistance became conflated with

Jovanni:

the American narrative of Islamic terrorism and its global war on terror.

Jovanni:

Indeed, there was a video showing Palestinians dancing and celebrating after

Jovanni:

the attacks of 9 11, and the American media was portraying it as Palestinians

Jovanni:

celebrating the attacks, but it wasn't.

Jovanni:

The video circulating in mainstream media was of Palestinians celebrating

Jovanni:

something else, and it was recorded before the 9 11 attacks.

Jovanni:

I believe a year before.

Jovanni:

But it didn't matter to those tasked to create a narrative.

Jovanni:

I noticed how much effort was made by the American media to intertwine

Jovanni:

the American and Israeli narratives.

Jovanni:

Then I came across the book, The Passionate Attachment, America's

Jovanni:

Involvement with Israel, 1947 to the Present, by George and Douglas Ball.

Jovanni:

This book explains.

Jovanni:

The history of the relationship between Israel and the U.

Jovanni:

S., America's unmitigated support for Israeli policies, and how the U.

Jovanni:

S.

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often sacrifices its interest for that of Israel.

Jovanni:

Then I read John M.

Jovanni:

Meyers and Stephen Waltz's book, The Israeli Lobby and the U.

Jovanni:

S.

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Foreign Policy.

Jovanni:

This book argues that the Israeli lobby wields disproportionate

Jovanni:

power in shaping U.

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S.

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foreign policy toward influence in the Middle East.

Jovanni:

But this influence Often results in policies that align more

Jovanni:

closely with Israel's interests rather than those of the U.

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S.

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The lobby power comes from the ability to influence Congress, guide media

Jovanni:

narratives, and shape public discourse.

Jovanni:

Then I started to notice how Israeli narratives get amplified in American

Jovanni:

media, while Palestinian narratives get downplayed, drowned, and scrutinized.

Jovanni:

This influence has led to uncritical U.

Jovanni:

S.

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support for Israel.

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Even when Israeli actions may be detrimental to U.

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S.

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interests, like we're witnessing now, with the ongoing genocide

Jovanni:

and cleansing of Palestinians and American institutions, openly doing

Jovanni:

everything possible to uncover what Israelis and give them impunity.

Jovanni:

This uncritical support for Israel will discipline any American of power or

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influence, even those without power and influence, who are critical or steps

Jovanni:

out of line when it comes to maintaining the official narrative of Israel.

Jovanni:

Under the misused term of anti Semitism.

Jovanni:

We've seen how people who step out of line when it comes to

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Israel get attacked and abused.

Jovanni:

Remember journalist Mark Lamont Hill?

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A veteran reporter and long serving member of the White

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House Press Corps Helen Thomas?

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Both got fired from their position for giving their opinion on the 76 year

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old Israeli occupation in Palestine and the treatment of Palestinians.

Jovanni:

Indeed, I recall former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney saying that as a freshman

Jovanni:

Congresswoman, she was given a list of topics with bipartisan consensus that was

Jovanni:

not to be touched, questioned, or debated, and that list was Israel's security.

Jovanni:

I want to introduce you to someone who experienced this abuse

Jovanni:

firsthand while doing her job as a journalist, Selena González.

Jovanni:

Selena was a journalist graduating from Northwestern University with

Jovanni:

a bachelor's degree in journalism.

Jovanni:

Now she is an author of children's books, poet, storyteller, essayist,

Jovanni:

and creator of the curative card deck Lotería Remedios.

Jovanni:

She conducts workshops on radical self love in other disciplines.

Jovanni:

Selena has received numerous awards for her books, such as the Tomás

Jovanni:

Rivera Mexican American Children's Book Award, the American Indian

Jovanni:

Youth Literature Honor Award, and the Pura Belpré Illustrator Award.

Jovanni:

Welcome to the show, Selena.

Jovanni:

Thank you for giving us your time.

Jovanni:

How are you doing today?

Selena Gonzales:

Thank you for having me.

Selena Gonzales:

I'm happy that we were able to arrange this.

Jovanni:

I know we've been talking about this for quite some time.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

It's been a while.

Selena Gonzales:

And the situation doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Selena Gonzales:

I know when I first met you, that was, before the October

Selena Gonzales:

situation really escalated.

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But I know that I had met you and, Some other people at the Esperanza Mercado de

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Paz who are familiar, a lot of people, who surround themselves in that organization

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are more aware of the struggles for peace and justice around the world.

Jovanni:

You're a very sought after person these days.

Jovanni:

I've seen you around, in the community.

Jovanni:

We pretty much frequent the same places, the Marquetas, like you just mentioned.

Jovanni:

We've chit chatted before.

Jovanni:

We bought the lotteria card from you, we know many of the same people, we

Jovanni:

were on the same circles, but we've never really spoken we met at the San

Jovanni:

Antonio city council pleading, the mayor of San Antonio, Ron Nuremberg to drop

Jovanni:

Tel Aviv as a San Antonio sister city.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah.

Jovanni:

That was about almost six months ago, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah, it was a while ago and I regret that I've not made the time

Selena Gonzales:

to go back, because yeah, their stances.

Selena Gonzales:

Should I just launch into what I wanted to say if I have more time?

Jovanni:

What we're talking about is that San Antonio gives,

Jovanni:

does the City Council does this, session called People to be Heard.

Jovanni:

Where you go to the, I believe it's every Wednesday evening, you

Jovanni:

go to City Council and plead your case for whatever it is, right?

Jovanni:

After the, situation in Palestine, October 7th, I believe we started

Jovanni:

in October 18th, members of the community, organizations, we filled

Jovanni:

the City Hall every week to plead.

Jovanni:

The mayor to drop Tel Aviv as a sister city,

Jovanni:

right?

Jovanni:

He kept telling us that they can't do it because it's not

Jovanni:

the program of sister city, it's not a political program, it's about

Jovanni:

people to people relations, it's more about friendship and stuff like that.

Jovanni:

It has nothing to do with geopolitics which is not true because another city

Jovanni:

in when the Russian incursion, started in Ukraine, in 2022, they dropped a

Jovanni:

Russian city like a bad habit quickly

Jovanni:

so if that particular city could have done it, I don't see why San Antonio

Jovanni:

couldn't have done the same thing.

Jovanni:

Think we have ten city councils.

Jovanni:

I think only three of the ten city councils stood by us.

Jovanni:

The rest pretty much just rejected the notion and flat out ignored us.

Selena Gonzales:

And asking them to call for a ceasefire.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't know that was the group's target or goal per se, but

Selena Gonzales:

that's what I would love to see.

Selena Gonzales:

There are much bigger Chicago is the one that comes to mind, who have unanimously

Selena Gonzales:

said, Hey, we are not in support of this.

Selena Gonzales:

We demand a ceasefire.

Selena Gonzales:

That's the least they can do.

Selena Gonzales:

But, yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

It's not happened, and it's shameful, but yeah, that's where we met.

Selena Gonzales:

I met a lot of the group members there, some of whom had been familiar faces

Selena Gonzales:

to me from the community, and I'm very grateful to those of you who have

Selena Gonzales:

been, consistently, pushing our elected officials to change their views on that,

Selena Gonzales:

because it goes all the way up to the top.

Selena Gonzales:

That's why I'm here.

Selena Gonzales:

That's why this mentality continues, and that's why we're sending an inordinate

Selena Gonzales:

amount of funds we're funding a genocide

Jovanni:

exactly.

Jovanni:

Just to highlight this, that our mayor is Ron Nirenberg.

Jovanni:

He's democrat.

Jovanni:

He branded himself as one of the most progressive leaders we had.

Jovanni:

He's with all the progressive, Things that progressives do, this is his last term.

Jovanni:

He can't run again, right?

Jovanni:

It shouldn't have been too much of an effort just to pause or drop

Jovanni:

the relationship with Tel Aviv.

Jovanni:

But we know that he has more political ambition, after being a mayor, probably he

Jovanni:

wants to do something on a national level.

Jovanni:

So that's probably one of his motivation of pretty much ignoring

Jovanni:

us and looking the other way.

Selena Gonzales:

It's a shameful thing.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't understand what it's going to take for these politicians, for our

Selena Gonzales:

country to really shift that tide.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't know what exactly it'll take, but I think we're seeing the

Selena Gonzales:

ramifications of it, in real time, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

So that's where we started speaking more in depth about the cause

Selena Gonzales:

and my personal knowledge of the Palestinian people and their struggles.

Selena Gonzales:

Did you want to get into?

Jovanni:

I want to, what is your connection?

Jovanni:

I know we're Palestine.

Jovanni:

I know when we started talking that day, we shared a lot, but what

Jovanni:

is your connection with Palestine?

Jovanni:

I want to ask you.

Selena Gonzales:

So when I was younger, fresh out of college, I graduated from

Selena Gonzales:

the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University and that's how

Selena Gonzales:

we started speaking about it, right?

Selena Gonzales:

As far as your podcast being a journalist, working for different forms of media

Selena Gonzales:

in some ways I still do, I have several publishing houses that I work with,

Selena Gonzales:

Initially, my work and training was as a journalist We were inspired by these

Selena Gonzales:

quotes of Joseph Medill, for whom the school was named, this idea of telling the

Selena Gonzales:

truth fearlessly and what is objectivity in journalism and these big questions

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from day one that were tough to answer, but nonetheless, we strove to meet those

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ideals And to be good objective reporters, I returned home to San Antonio, worked

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for The Current for a while, and that led me in an interesting direction because

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I went on a whim to try out for a play.

Selena Gonzales:

at Jumpstart Performance Company, which was housed at what is

Selena Gonzales:

now The Brick in Blue Star.

Selena Gonzales:

For the people in San Antonio who know that area, I tried out for a play called

Selena Gonzales:

Habibi, and Habibi is based off of a novel, a young adult novel, written by

Selena Gonzales:

one of our, probably our most beloved, which is what Habibi means, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Our most beloved writer in San Antonio, or one of our most

Selena Gonzales:

acclaimed writers, I should say.

Selena Gonzales:

Naomi Shihab Nye, well loved in the Palestinian American and wider Palestinian

Selena Gonzales:

world, a beautiful, amazing poet and activist and writer, her young adult

Selena Gonzales:

novel follows the journey of a young girl, Liana, who is like Naomi, from

Selena Gonzales:

a family that is half Palestinian, half American, and goes to visit her

Selena Gonzales:

Palestinian family, and encounters The Uglier Side of the Occupation.

Selena Gonzales:

So this novel does well.

Selena Gonzales:

Someone turned it into a play.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't know any of this background, right?

Selena Gonzales:

I try out for this play, thinking I'll get a little extra role.

Selena Gonzales:

And I got the lead.

Selena Gonzales:

It was fantastic.

Selena Gonzales:

It was this journey that I had.

Selena Gonzales:

You're studying this history, right?

Selena Gonzales:

You're studying the context of the play.

Selena Gonzales:

It was intense, even though it was a young adult novel, so it was watered down,

Selena Gonzales:

not in a bad way, just in a way that is more digestible, for a young audience.

Selena Gonzales:

Even that, Jovanni was just like unbelievable.

Selena Gonzales:

I couldn't believe that people were living in the way that they are.

Selena Gonzales:

I met the author.

Selena Gonzales:

I met some of the people who were aware of the Palestinian cause.

Selena Gonzales:

And this is one of the reasons they wanted to bring it to the stage, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They needed to get the word out.

Selena Gonzales:

This was way back in 2000, 2001, 2002 I started learning about the

Selena Gonzales:

Palestinian struggle at that time.

Selena Gonzales:

We staged this show, there were buses of people who came in from Houston, from

Selena Gonzales:

Dallas, I began to meet some of the wider, Palestinian families living in Texas,

Selena Gonzales:

and seeing their love for Naomi, seeing their appreciation for bringing these

Selena Gonzales:

struggles to light was overwhelming.

Selena Gonzales:

It led me to another play.

Selena Gonzales:

This one was more intense for an adult audience.

Selena Gonzales:

The play was a conglom it was, I guess a conglomeration of voices of women.

Selena Gonzales:

Who are currently, at that time, living in occupied Palestine, right?

Selena Gonzales:

In Gaza, in the West Bank, dozens of women were interviewed, we heard their

Selena Gonzales:

interviews, oral histories, like we heard them, we saw the raw, the raw transcripts,

Selena Gonzales:

these were put into, Composite.

Selena Gonzales:

That's the word I was looking for.

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Composite voices, right?

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Three different characters.

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Because I had appeared in Habibi, they said, hey, will you be in this play too?

Selena Gonzales:

This play was called Otherwise Occupied and Diane Monroe, led that effort.

Selena Gonzales:

She and, Dr.

Selena Gonzales:

Ola, I'm trying to think of her last name.

Selena Gonzales:

Aldi.

Selena Gonzales:

Aldi.

Selena Gonzales:

Aldi.

Selena Gonzales:

I'll get the name for you because it's important.

Selena Gonzales:

She came back into my, radar recently because she's still currently trying

Selena Gonzales:

to get her family out of Gaza, dr.

Selena Gonzales:

Rola helped arrange some of these interviews and Diane Monroe, who

Selena Gonzales:

was a part of Jumpstart Performance Company, they gathered all of

Selena Gonzales:

these voices, they turned it into this profound, powerful play.

Selena Gonzales:

I had the honor of acting in it for those people who act, any of the Arts

Selena Gonzales:

involve moments of vessel work, right?

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Where spirit or, the greater mystery just inhabits you the reality of

Selena Gonzales:

what the women, the men too, right?

Selena Gonzales:

The men and the children, but what the women are dealing with there and the

Selena Gonzales:

shame and the subjugation that they have to endure daily is incredible.

Selena Gonzales:

It's unbelievable.

Selena Gonzales:

But here's what happens, Jovanni, at the time that I am expanding out of writing

Selena Gonzales:

and into stage acting and had this opportunity of all things to be exploring

Selena Gonzales:

the Palestinian struggle and existence.

Selena Gonzales:

At this same time, my sister is on the other side of the world, she's in China

Selena Gonzales:

through a sister program with Incarnate Word teaching English and she meets the

Selena Gonzales:

man who is now her husband of 20 years.

Selena Gonzales:

She meets Sofian, Saqqan, who would become her husband, and he is Palestinian.

Selena Gonzales:

So we start talking about this, and we are very well educated women.

Selena Gonzales:

Our family, watches the news and we were comparing notes, like

Selena Gonzales:

young 20s, early 20s, right?

Selena Gonzales:

How is this possible?

Selena Gonzales:

How is this happening?

Selena Gonzales:

How have we not heard of this, we start comparing notes and right off

Selena Gonzales:

the bat, I remember this conversation with her where she said, I don't know

Selena Gonzales:

what to think of it all, it wasn't that she couldn't see what was right

Selena Gonzales:

and what was wrong, but the idea of.

Selena Gonzales:

There were generations now who lived in refugee camps.

Selena Gonzales:

His parents lived in, Jordan, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And Amman, where there's a very huge refugee population.

Selena Gonzales:

But this idea of not letting go, not forgetting that struggle.

Selena Gonzales:

And I said, to me, I see our people.

Selena Gonzales:

I see our ancestors, our parents raised us with the knowledge

Selena Gonzales:

of honoring and acknowledging our Indigenous heritage, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And then, the very little that we read in our history books growing up,

Selena Gonzales:

I always wondered, at what point did the Native American people give up,

Selena Gonzales:

at what point did they stop fighting?

Selena Gonzales:

And you can get into the research, see that different tribes fought longer,

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and different people signed on to different agreements and were

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subjugated in different ways.

Selena Gonzales:

That was a battle that was lost in many fronts, and in many ways,

Selena Gonzales:

we're still here, I told her, I said, with the Palestinians, it's

Selena Gonzales:

like, they haven't given up, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They're still going to fight, and it's a good thing that these things are being

Selena Gonzales:

documented, and that the word is getting out in these different art forms, What

Selena Gonzales:

was happening was that because my sister, married into this family, we had the

Selena Gonzales:

opportunity to travel to Palestine I have been three times over the years,

Selena Gonzales:

over the last 20 years, and that very first trip Sofian could not come with us.

Selena Gonzales:

My sister and I went alone because he had not yet received his American

Selena Gonzales:

passport, which is just insane that we, as Americans, with those privileges,

Selena Gonzales:

were able to cross into a territory That he, nor any of his siblings or

Selena Gonzales:

parents could enter, so what we were carrying with us were gifts and messages

Selena Gonzales:

and photos from families that had been separated since, I'm assuming 1948,

Selena Gonzales:

I could get the exact, dates, but The heartwarming part of it

Selena Gonzales:

and also heartbreaking part of it was that these families, they

Selena Gonzales:

knew everything about each other.

Selena Gonzales:

And this was before the internet was as fast as it was, right?

Selena Gonzales:

But even then, they knew whose children belong to who,

Selena Gonzales:

they marveled looking at these photos, like physical photos of their siblings or

Selena Gonzales:

their cousins, children and grandchildren, they cried over these things.

Selena Gonzales:

They were so loving and welcoming to us because we were able to.

Selena Gonzales:

Deliver these physical things, but also energetically, send this love

Selena Gonzales:

and be beloved guests in their homes the level of hospitality in that

Selena Gonzales:

community blows my mind every time.

Selena Gonzales:

In that trip, I was also able to meet some of the women whose stories

Selena Gonzales:

I had portrayed on stage here in Yanaguana, in San Antonio, and

Selena Gonzales:

that was quite profound as well.

Selena Gonzales:

That was and continues to be part of my education in understanding the

Selena Gonzales:

Palestinian existence and struggle is that I've seen it with my own eyes.

Selena Gonzales:

And that's the hard part, sometimes people will try to check me or correct

Selena Gonzales:

me and it's look, I've been there.

Selena Gonzales:

I've seen the IDF in action.

Selena Gonzales:

Please come talk to me if you've seen the same, because if not,

Selena Gonzales:

the propaganda is I've seen

Jovanni:

the checkpoints, the daily humiliation and all that, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Horrible.

Selena Gonzales:

Here's what I saw, and this is something that I ended up writing

Selena Gonzales:

about, was yeah, daily humiliation.

Selena Gonzales:

The checkpoint situation is crazy.

Selena Gonzales:

Even us, upon entering, I'll take you back to that.

Selena Gonzales:

Upon entering you can opt to not have your passport stamped.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't know if I had told you about that, but you can ask them to not

Selena Gonzales:

stamp your passport, them being Israel.

Selena Gonzales:

And what's interesting about that is that you can't do that in any

Selena Gonzales:

other country in the world, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Say oh, hey, don't, that's cool.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't want you to stamp my passport.

Selena Gonzales:

But the reason you can get away with it is because they are an illegal

Selena Gonzales:

occupation and they know that.

Selena Gonzales:

On some level.

Selena Gonzales:

That's what I'm, that's what I'm assuming.

Selena Gonzales:

But the reason that you don't want to get it stamped is that there's a number of

Selena Gonzales:

countries, one, a huge number of countries that don't even recognize Israel, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They call it Palestine.

Selena Gonzales:

In China, they call it Palestine.

Selena Gonzales:

It's not, when they ask you even on your visa form what countries

Selena Gonzales:

have you visited recently?

Selena Gonzales:

Israel is not a box, right?

Selena Gonzales:

It's Palestine.

Selena Gonzales:

There are maps in, dozens and dozens of countries that recognize

Selena Gonzales:

Palestine for what it is.

Selena Gonzales:

But anyways, you cannot enter certain countries if you have that acknowledgement

Selena Gonzales:

of entering Israel, if you recognize that.

Selena Gonzales:

We knew this.

Selena Gonzales:

We asked them not to.

Selena Gonzales:

Automatically, they're on your ass, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They are monitoring you.

Selena Gonzales:

They want to know.

Selena Gonzales:

They want to know where you're going.

Selena Gonzales:

So we were even limited in that sense.

Selena Gonzales:

But here's what happens is that you enter in a completely different

Selena Gonzales:

way, and you are relegated to the roads that the Palestinians are.

Selena Gonzales:

So unless you enter the country that way, You see a completely different thing.

Selena Gonzales:

So I'll give you the example of my mother who went on a

Selena Gonzales:

quote unquote holy trip, right?

Selena Gonzales:

So they, she went with a church, had a beautiful time, wonderful time.

Selena Gonzales:

This was before meeting Sofiane, meeting the sectans who are now a part of her

Selena Gonzales:

extended family, essentially, right?

Selena Gonzales:

She will tell you it's a completely different trip.

Selena Gonzales:

You enter Israel as a, Christian tourist or just a tourist in general.

Selena Gonzales:

And honestly, any of these politicians too sometimes I wonder I don't know

Selena Gonzales:

what anybody's excuse is now, because there's so much through social media,

Selena Gonzales:

there's so much raw footage that you just cannot ignore, but when you enter

Selena Gonzales:

in a different way, there is, you're traveling on different roads, you are

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drinking different water, you are in the hotels what you have access to, what

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you are viewing is completely different.

Selena Gonzales:

It's absolutely an apartheid system.

Selena Gonzales:

And so you can visit Israel and see a very wealthy country, a very

Selena Gonzales:

beautiful, clean, all of that.

Selena Gonzales:

But the Palestinians are relegated to certain roads, to certain

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cars, to certain systems, to certain water, to certain food.

Selena Gonzales:

And obviously

Jovanni:

It's an apartheid state.

Selena Gonzales:

It absolutely is.

Selena Gonzales:

And they track, and they monitor, and they block they

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have these checkpoints endlessly.

Selena Gonzales:

So it was exactly the way we had heard from these interviews.

Selena Gonzales:

It's exactly the way we had portrayed in these in this play.

Selena Gonzales:

But, a play is it's rehearsal.

Selena Gonzales:

It's rehearsal, and even the best acting moments where you can sympathize and

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empathize, you can shake it off and cry it out and go back to your normal life.

Selena Gonzales:

And it's a very horrific thing to see and to know that people

Selena Gonzales:

live there every day like this.

Selena Gonzales:

Because you get sick of it after a couple of days, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Even a couple of hours if, should have gone.

Selena Gonzales:

I to pull you over and question you endlessly as they will do because they

Selena Gonzales:

want to and they're not checking anything.

Jovanni:

They're people to learn 18 year old, 19 year olds.

Jovanni:

A lot of these soldiers, they're like young and they have this power, and

Jovanni:

they have this, this weapons on them.

Jovanni:

And, it, because it happens to the American military as well.

Jovanni:

You got these particularly like in the in the wars in Iraq and

Jovanni:

Afghanistan, you have these 19.

Jovanni:

19, 18, 19, 20 year olds driving around with big guns and just

Jovanni:

manhandling people, people older than them, just having a ball with it

Jovanni:

because they can do it, yeah, yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

And these guns are massive.

Selena Gonzales:

To this day, I've never seen guns and they have their finger on the

Selena Gonzales:

trigger all the time, and they will put it in somebody's face.

Selena Gonzales:

Grandfathers, grandmothers they're elderly.

Selena Gonzales:

There's zero respect for, there's no human decency afforded

Selena Gonzales:

to the Palestinians there.

Jovanni:

Two things, two things, it's funny you just mentioned that

Jovanni:

first thing you you mentioned about the we put the American indigenous

Jovanni:

parallel with the Arab world.

Jovanni:

Probably with the the Palestinian indigenous people, when you made that

Jovanni:

connection, I was speaking with a an Israeli in last episode, last couple

Jovanni:

episodes that we're here, we interviewed an Israeli Israeli Canadian woman.

Jovanni:

She's a filmmaker.

Jovanni:

It's a friend of mine.

Jovanni:

And she was telling a story how she was raised, believing in the project,

Jovanni:

the Israeli project and everything, but it wasn't until she went to school,

Jovanni:

In Canada, she went to the University of Canada, and then she saw, she got

Jovanni:

involved into the, she looked into the the Canadian Indigenous situation there.

Jovanni:

That she didn't see, she didn't make that connection.

Jovanni:

She didn't see that parallel, the connection between the indigenous

Jovanni:

people in the Americas versus the indigenous people where she's, where

Jovanni:

she was coming from, and now she's a, she's in a Palestinian advocate now.

Jovanni:

She makes films and stuff like that.

Jovanni:

But it was interesting that you mentioned that, that parallel, that

Jovanni:

connection, is that, I don't know if you've seen that film, it's a new

Jovanni:

film, it's called Israelization, I believe it's called, Israelization.

Jovanni:

They just had a, they just had a film screening a few weeks ago that I went

Jovanni:

to, and then one of the person that was interviewed was, it was an older

Jovanni:

Palestinian man, he was an American citizen, And he lived in the United

Jovanni:

States for many years, I think, I don't know where, which part, but he lived

Jovanni:

in the United States for many decades, and he moved back to Palestine, and

Jovanni:

he was showing That there were this thing going on with with some Israeli

Jovanni:

soldiers and some Palestinian men that were coming out of the the mosque.

Jovanni:

There would be manhandled and brutal and, moved around and there would be,

Jovanni:

these young Israeli soldiers and they were manhandling all these people

Jovanni:

and whatnot and yelling at them and telling them to move and everything.

Jovanni:

And then there was this one young Israeli soldier pointing a gun

Jovanni:

at the person being interviewed.

Jovanni:

And, and the Israeli soldier was giving orders.

Jovanni:

Was giving him orders and and the Palestinian man told him,

Jovanni:

asked him in English with no accent, where are you from?

Jovanni:

And the Palestinian boy or the Palestinian soldier replied in

Jovanni:

English, with no accent or anything, Chicago, he didn't say it so there was,

Selena Gonzales:

so the Israeli soldier answered Chicago?

Jovanni:

Yeah.

Jovanni:

So the Israeli soldier was an was an Israeli American and the Palestinian

Jovanni:

man was an, was a Palestinian American,

Selena Gonzales:

like that would never occur here.

Jovanni:

No, but the, what this illustrates is that the Zionist

Jovanni:

project is pretty much is meant to draw people from all over the world to

Jovanni:

settle, to identify with a particular religion to settle in this land

Jovanni:

already inhabited by other people.

Jovanni:

Yeah.

Jovanni:

Push them out.

Jovanni:

But I wanted to talk more on one of the reasons that I brought you to the, to this

Jovanni:

conversation is that one of the things that you mentioned at the city council

Jovanni:

was your experience as a journalist.

Jovanni:

And then you're working for an outlet and you wrote a story

Jovanni:

and then you start getting heat.

Jovanni:

The story, can you provide some background on the story you wrote

Jovanni:

that led to the harassment and what were the key points or criticism that

Jovanni:

you made that led to this to, getting pretty much harassed over the story?

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah, so I had, I had encountered, I'd seen the seen

Selena Gonzales:

the way the Native people of the land live and seen that it was an apartheid

Selena Gonzales:

situation, but also, like you said the consistent harassment, the way the

Selena Gonzales:

children even are like, to say hassled, to say bullied is, when you're grown

Selena Gonzales:

men with guns, Kicking around little children, that's beyond that, right?

Selena Gonzales:

That's, that is true terrorism and that's what I witnessed.

Selena Gonzales:

I witnessed them just rolling a tank and having that block

Selena Gonzales:

off the entire neighborhood.

Selena Gonzales:

So there's no way in and no way out, right?

Selena Gonzales:

I remember one day we had plans to go see some birds.

Selena Gonzales:

And we couldn't leave the neighborhood because the Palestinians, the

Selena Gonzales:

Israeli soldiers just decided to, I don't know, they decided

Selena Gonzales:

there was some sort of threat.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't know what could these folks have nothing.

Selena Gonzales:

The children are educated by the United Nations and I'm not really sure what.

Selena Gonzales:

But what really struck me was the The water, so their water is

Selena Gonzales:

already a different system, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They don't have the rights to their own resources, like these soldiers are

Selena Gonzales:

cutting down their trees and I'm sure by now we've seen a lot of these horrific

Selena Gonzales:

things, but to see it firsthand and to see their water tanks, the limited

Selena Gonzales:

water supplies that they have, and they are these water tanks are on top of

Selena Gonzales:

the homes of the Palestinians and the number of gun holes Inside these tanks,

Selena Gonzales:

where it was just, it was sickening.

Selena Gonzales:

It makes me sick to this day.

Selena Gonzales:

Remembering just that again, these like kid soldiers, right?

Selena Gonzales:

High on power or whatever, essentially having target practice with

Selena Gonzales:

somebody's water supplies, right?

Selena Gonzales:

It was something like that, that, that really stayed with me.

Selena Gonzales:

And what I remember reading was one of these.

Selena Gonzales:

Back to the Sister City, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Sister City visit that our Council people had made to Israel, in quotes

Selena Gonzales:

and that they marveled at their water system and how wonderful it was, and

Selena Gonzales:

they were bringing back all of these wonderful ideas to SAWS to our water,

Selena Gonzales:

that's the treatment center that, That cleans and provides our water, right?

Selena Gonzales:

San Antonio water system, I believe it stands for.

Selena Gonzales:

And so there was this piece that I had read in the Express News

Selena Gonzales:

and it was about that, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Like how the sister city trip was so influential and these politicians

Selena Gonzales:

were giving all these great quotes on, it's a propaganda piece is what

Selena Gonzales:

it is, but it's also part of this whole sister city effort thing, right?

Selena Gonzales:

It pissed me off, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And so I wrote, which was essentially a guest editorial piece, but I approached

Selena Gonzales:

it also as a journalist, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Everything that I provided were facts and essentially relaying the experience that

Selena Gonzales:

I had, because I am still a journalist.

Selena Gonzales:

From the day that I learned more in depth of the Palestinian struggle, I was, I

Selena Gonzales:

continue to be flabbergasted at the way our mainstream media pretends as though

Selena Gonzales:

this is, one, a legal country, two, any kind, affords any kind of human dignity we

Selena Gonzales:

want to point to other countries and their treatment of human rights and whatnot,

Selena Gonzales:

but I, so I say what it is specifically with the water, And and so I submit this.

Selena Gonzales:

I wrote about it there in the Express News and then a longer piece in the Esperanza

Selena Gonzales:

Peace and Justice Center's media, which is called La Voz de Esperanza.

Selena Gonzales:

But the, in the Express, there was a there was a refute.

Selena Gonzales:

There was somebody else who wrote a guest column and he I just looked

Selena Gonzales:

up his name right before we started.

Selena Gonzales:

And it was something that I have not looked up in all these years.

Selena Gonzales:

Because it still brings me to tears because what happened was this man

Selena Gonzales:

refuted everything that I said.

Selena Gonzales:

And the same narrative of don't you know, like where Israel is full,

Selena Gonzales:

there's, we're constantly defending ourselves from terrorists, right?

Selena Gonzales:

This whole narrative that we now know is not, it's not necessarily true, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Or it's like questioning the term of who's the terrorist here, right?

Selena Gonzales:

But back then.

Selena Gonzales:

Back then, all you had to do was accuse someone of being an anti Semite, and

Selena Gonzales:

everybody looked at you ugly, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And that's essentially what happened, is that right away, and now we know

Selena Gonzales:

there's a whole playbook for this, right?

Selena Gonzales:

There's a whole hack that Israeli sympathizers, or I should say

Selena Gonzales:

Zionist sympathizers, will turn to.

Selena Gonzales:

But at that time, I was a young journalist, I was here's I'll tell

Selena Gonzales:

you my feelings on it, but what happened was, there was a, the guest

Selena Gonzales:

editorial that tried to refute it, but really they didn't, it was full

Selena Gonzales:

of propaganda, but, and accusations of anti Semitism, and I didn't know

Selena Gonzales:

what the hell I was talking about was essentially what it said, and I don't

Selena Gonzales:

know if this guy if he was responsible, all I know was that I was flooded.

Selena Gonzales:

With hate mail and it was one thing when it came to through the express like

Selena Gonzales:

on their comment board, but I started getting emails and then I had, I got

Selena Gonzales:

two letters in the snail mail and these were sent to my parents home and I'm

Selena Gonzales:

assuming this is because, these are this is the mailing address I have on record.

Selena Gonzales:

There are certain things that are accessible through public record.

Selena Gonzales:

And these included not only accusations of being an anti Semite, and that was

Selena Gonzales:

hard enough to hear be uneducated, you're wrong, you're this, you're that,

Selena Gonzales:

but there were threats of death, there were threats of, the kind of stuff on,

Selena Gonzales:

on, like the ugly stuff that you see on social media now like you should be

Selena Gonzales:

raped, you should be, like really ugly, awful shit being thrown my way, and being

Selena Gonzales:

written And sent to my parents home.

Selena Gonzales:

This is probably the first time that I'm speaking about it without just

Selena Gonzales:

completely melting into tears because I felt all kinds of things, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And I think I even cried that day at city council because it's an awful

Selena Gonzales:

thing to be accused of being a racist or being a hateful person in any way,

Selena Gonzales:

because I'm quite the opposite of that.

Selena Gonzales:

But I remember at that time too, feeling threatened, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Nobody wants to feel unsafe in their own home.

Selena Gonzales:

Nobody wants to bring harm to their parents home.

Selena Gonzales:

But also parents paid all this money, right?

Selena Gonzales:

We're here, we're from the West Side, we're from, we're living

Selena Gonzales:

on an educator's salary, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And all the resources and energy that they put to send me to college, and

Selena Gonzales:

then You know, it was like, I felt like I had failed in some way, when really

Selena Gonzales:

it was, I did all my due diligence.

Selena Gonzales:

There was nothing that I made up, there was nothing that I fabricated

Selena Gonzales:

and they made it seem that way.

Selena Gonzales:

It was such a concerted effort to smear everything that I had written.

Selena Gonzales:

I did not get a chance to write for the Express News again.

Selena Gonzales:

Nobody told me that I could, but here's what I was told.

Jovanni:

So were you employed by the by the outlet?

Selena Gonzales:

I did freelance work for them, so I had done

Selena Gonzales:

some travel pieces for them.

Selena Gonzales:

So no, not, I was not on staff.

Selena Gonzales:

The only place I was ever on staff for was the San Antonio Current.

Selena Gonzales:

But I did have editors that I worked regularly with.

Selena Gonzales:

I did feel At that point that I had a good reputation in town for

Selena Gonzales:

providing columns reviews, things of that sort, travel stories.

Selena Gonzales:

I was occasionally asked to do these different things

Selena Gonzales:

for different media outlets.

Selena Gonzales:

But what happened in this case was that when the threats felt personal

Selena Gonzales:

and when they didn't feel that way they were I turned to my editors at

Selena Gonzales:

the time, not just the editors that I had worked with, but other writers.

Selena Gonzales:

And this is what surprised me even more.

Selena Gonzales:

It was just like salt in the wound, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Like salt everywhere.

Selena Gonzales:

What I was told over and over again was, oh yeah, no, we don't,

Selena Gonzales:

yeah, we can't talk about Israel.

Selena Gonzales:

That shocked me.

Selena Gonzales:

Yes.

Selena Gonzales:

And it was just a very basic yeah, no, don't ever do that.

Selena Gonzales:

Here is what I was told.

Selena Gonzales:

If you ever want a career, If you want to ever want to be successful in

Selena Gonzales:

journalism, you don't touch Israel, and the sad part was that I wasn't just

Selena Gonzales:

told that in my circle of journalists.

Selena Gonzales:

I was also told that by creative writers, right?

Selena Gonzales:

So at this point, I, when I was a freelancer, I had been doing work

Selena Gonzales:

more regularly also with Gemini Inc.

Selena Gonzales:

Literary Arts Center, right?

Selena Gonzales:

I worked there also full time and then also, part time as a creative

Selena Gonzales:

writing instructor over the years.

Selena Gonzales:

So I had friends, again, who were journalists and who were also novelists

Selena Gonzales:

and poets and things like that, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And every single person told me, if you want a successful career

Selena Gonzales:

as a journalist or as a, published writer, don't ever touch Israel.

Selena Gonzales:

Don't ever criticize them again.

Selena Gonzales:

And the fact that everybody just.

Selena Gonzales:

And I was obliged by this that everybody followed this rule.

Selena Gonzales:

It it shook me, and I thought I was like done as a writer.

Selena Gonzales:

Honestly, there was a long time when I thought that I had

Selena Gonzales:

effed up irrevocably, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Esperanza was the one who said, tell us more.

Selena Gonzales:

We want to hear more about what you witnessed, right?

Selena Gonzales:

We don't have enough voices from.

Selena Gonzales:

From that, your perspective, or Americans who have traveled out

Selena Gonzales:

there, who have been to the refugee camps, we want to hear more.

Selena Gonzales:

So I'll always love Esperanza, and La Voz de Esperanza for that,

Selena Gonzales:

but it shook me, it scared me.

Selena Gonzales:

I'm, was surprised that I was that I could not envision myself as a published

Selena Gonzales:

writer, which is what I am now.

Selena Gonzales:

But and really, honestly, it wasn't until recently that I felt less afraid.

Selena Gonzales:

To speak out about it because, over the years what I began to see was Helen

Selena Gonzales:

Thomas, as you spoke of earlier, right?

Selena Gonzales:

At first I thought oh my god, this is just you're in your own feelings, right?

Selena Gonzales:

But then it's seeing this most powerful woman, right?

Selena Gonzales:

This most powerful woman, one of the most powerful American

Selena Gonzales:

reporters who I had seen growing up in every press conference, right?

Selena Gonzales:

She was always the first one picked, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Those, the president's always, yeah, or that.

Selena Gonzales:

And then just to see her smeared in such a way, none of that was, And all of that was

Selena Gonzales:

hard to watch, but it also, it made sense.

Selena Gonzales:

It felt oh, okay, this is not just me.

Selena Gonzales:

And then the horrors continued.

Selena Gonzales:

The Al Jazeera reporter, her first name is Shirin, I can't remember her last

Selena Gonzales:

name and the Esperanza makes a place for her on their altar every year.

Jovanni:

Yeah.

Jovanni:

Was it the one that she got sniped, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

And and then, you lose count after October 7th we've lost count of the number of

Selena Gonzales:

journalists who have been assassinated.

Jovanni:

Including staff from UNRWA, you the school that you mentioned, the

Jovanni:

United Nations school that you mentioned that educate Palestinian children is

Jovanni:

called, they call it UNRWA, that's the that's the acronym and a lot of UNRWA

Jovanni:

staff members that have also been killed.

Jovanni:

Yeah so did you continue working as a journalist after that?

Jovanni:

How long did this harassment campaign lasted,

Selena Gonzales:

so that lasted for a while, and I saw the ramifications for

Selena Gonzales:

a while in, in a different context, and I want to say it happened maybe around

Selena Gonzales:

the same time, and I could get these dates, but they were, it was essentially

Selena Gonzales:

all in my, let's just say my 20s, right?

Selena Gonzales:

I'm now 45, but at one point I had I had a mentor whose name I won't mention, but was

Selena Gonzales:

also a very well known writer, novelist, and we had a pretty close relationship.

Selena Gonzales:

I was even, I had even been asked to babysit His children, and I and I remember

Selena Gonzales:

I went to their home for that reason and the wife liked me and everything, right?

Selena Gonzales:

The kids did, but I we were there to talk about that, and I think I must

Selena Gonzales:

have been working In the play, Otherwise Occupied, because I remember I had a DVD.

Selena Gonzales:

This is what dates the story, right?

Selena Gonzales:

I had a DVD, and it was about the Palestinian struggle, and it had

Selena Gonzales:

a child who was horribly, right?

Selena Gonzales:

The images that we're so accustomed to seeing these days, where this child is

Selena Gonzales:

bloodied, is there's bomb dust everywhere.

Selena Gonzales:

The child looks super scared and it's a photo, right?

Selena Gonzales:

It's a photo still.

Selena Gonzales:

And there's and there's these guards and it's looking up really

Selena Gonzales:

frightened at these IDF soldiers.

Selena Gonzales:

And so it's a dvd.

Selena Gonzales:

This is the image that's on the cover.

Selena Gonzales:

And they had given me this as material to study, right?

Selena Gonzales:

For this play that I was practicing for.

Selena Gonzales:

So I'm just carrying it.

Selena Gonzales:

I was carrying it with my books and my folders, and I walked into.

Selena Gonzales:

The house with this and I had put it down on the kitchen table and we're

Selena Gonzales:

talking about like the kids and their snack time and la and this the and

Selena Gonzales:

the writer my writer friend says at some point why you Why are you

Selena Gonzales:

bringing that propaganda into my house?

Selena Gonzales:

Really?

Selena Gonzales:

And he was a funny guy.

Selena Gonzales:

He was a funny guy, like very well loved guy because he was humorous, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And Being

Jovanni:

serious or was he just being funny?

Selena Gonzales:

I thought he was being funny.

Selena Gonzales:

So I started laughing i'm like oh and he said no i don't know he asked me again

Selena Gonzales:

and i said oh yeah no i know i'm like doing this play because at this point

Selena Gonzales:

anybody who i had met right anybody who i had met surrounding this play

Selena Gonzales:

any educated person like truly educated person And I shouldn't say, because it

Selena Gonzales:

took, it really took what has happened recently for the majority of us to

Selena Gonzales:

like really understand the complexities of, because the propaganda machine so

Selena Gonzales:

strongly in favor of Israel, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And but he was a, his wife was a professor and he was a very learned guy, so I

Selena Gonzales:

couldn't understand what he was saying.

Selena Gonzales:

And I had never received that response before.

Selena Gonzales:

It was either like, will tell me more, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Or they were very aware wow, where's that play happening?

Selena Gonzales:

I'm glad the Palestinian voice is getting out, right?

Selena Gonzales:

So when he said that, I was like, I thought he was kidding.

Selena Gonzales:

And I started saying more about the play.

Selena Gonzales:

And he finally just said, I'm a Zionist, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And I still thought he was.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah, I thought he was kidding.

Selena Gonzales:

I said, and he said, yeah, and I want to say he even used the words

Selena Gonzales:

a hardcore Zionist or a hardline Zionist, something to that effect.

Selena Gonzales:

And I didn't know what to say.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't think I even, even now, thinking back, I, because here's what happened

Selena Gonzales:

after, not only did was oh, it turns out we don't need a babysitter after

Selena Gonzales:

all I believed it back then, I was like, oh, okay okay, I thought I had this

Selena Gonzales:

extra source of income he revoked his.

Selena Gonzales:

support basically and this is somebody who had agreed to do like letters of

Selena Gonzales:

recommendation for a master's program he who somebody who believed in me as

Selena Gonzales:

a strong writer and it was it's not until now that i realized what that

Selena Gonzales:

moment must have meant for him be it but but no years later like i've seen

Selena Gonzales:

him at book festivals and he acts like he doesn't know me he won't look at me

Selena Gonzales:

he won't talk to me i'm sure there's other writers and editors who Don't care

Selena Gonzales:

for me because of my me speaking out.

Selena Gonzales:

I'm again.

Selena Gonzales:

I'm surprised that I've been able to publish in the ways that I have,

Selena Gonzales:

but it was a very heartbreaking thing for me because that was

Selena Gonzales:

someone I considered a friend.

Selena Gonzales:

And here's what's comical about that.

Selena Gonzales:

This guy is also, again, a good guy.

Selena Gonzales:

But a vegan, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And I remember going back to the office at Gemini Inc.

Selena Gonzales:

And and I said I just had this weird conversation, right?

Selena Gonzales:

With this writer and I told them what he said.

Selena Gonzales:

I told my boss what he said.

Selena Gonzales:

He said, yeah, so and so said, he made a remark about this DVD

Selena Gonzales:

that I had, and, told me, not to bring that kind of propaganda into

Selena Gonzales:

his house because he's a Zionist.

Selena Gonzales:

And then she said, I thought he was vegan.

Selena Gonzales:

And I laughed, and then, the accountant person who I worked with

Selena Gonzales:

same thing, because this guy's funny.

Selena Gonzales:

She was like, Was he kidding?

Selena Gonzales:

And I said, No, he said he's a hardcore Zionist.

Selena Gonzales:

And she said, I thought he was vegan.

Selena Gonzales:

And the understanding being right, like, how can you be

Selena Gonzales:

a compassionate human being?

Selena Gonzales:

Like, how can you have this greater understanding of Because he was a

Selena Gonzales:

vegan for heartfelt reasons, right?

Selena Gonzales:

He could see that there should be an end to the suffering of animals, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And and I think he even wrote about it, incorporated some of that into his

Selena Gonzales:

work, but couldn't see the humanity in

Jovanni:

Palestinians.

Selena Gonzales:

And the people.

Selena Gonzales:

But again, to this day, if he ever spoke with me, if we ever had a conversation

Selena Gonzales:

I would want to know have you seen the, because I really do think that a lot

Selena Gonzales:

of folks who live there or have family there, they've never seen the other side.

Selena Gonzales:

The only Israelis or Jews who I've ever heard from or talked to who

Selena Gonzales:

have seen the way the refugees live changes their mind completely.

Selena Gonzales:

They are on the other side.

Selena Gonzales:

They are like your friend in Canada who are like, oh no,

Selena Gonzales:

we need to amplify this voice.

Selena Gonzales:

This is not okay.

Selena Gonzales:

I have yet to meet anyone who has seen the other side and not

Selena Gonzales:

advocated for the Palestinians.

Jovanni:

The propaganda is strong.

Jovanni:

Here in the United States Zionists Zionists, which is which is an ideology

Jovanni:

that started in Europe in the 1800s.

Jovanni:

It's akin to to colonialism and imperialism which was big.

Jovanni:

Which was big in the late, 18 hundreds, into the mid 19 hundreds.

Jovanni:

And it's pretty much Jewish na nationalism.

Jovanni:

You don't have to be, and it is not akin to, it's not a religious ideology per se.

Jovanni:

It's that of nationalism.

Jovanni:

It's that nationalism akin to the nationalist.

Jovanni:

Gazi that was at the time in, in, in Europe at the time with, Germany

Jovanni:

unified Germany as a country.

Jovanni:

Germany, we know Germany today, didn't unify until 1870.

Jovanni:

So Germany is a relatively new country.

Jovanni:

Italy didn't unify until 18, 1880.

Jovanni:

So some of these countries, and then they adopted this, this identity

Jovanni:

of nationalism, once they, all this sporadic community, this German

Jovanni:

speaking communities all across Central Europe combined and turned

Jovanni:

into a country, now they're they held onto this identity as a German, and

Jovanni:

Zionists, as German nationalism, right?

Jovanni:

Italian nationalism, and that paved the way for Italian colonialism

Jovanni:

in Italy, and in Libya, And in Somalia, et cetera, right?

Jovanni:

So you have this ideology.

Jovanni:

Of Zionism, created in Europe, by a Hungarian man named Theodor Herzl.

Jovanni:

He was in Austr he was Australian, he was Austrian, but he was Jewish.

Jovanni:

So he, he came about to link, to create this nationality based

Jovanni:

on a religious culture, right?

Jovanni:

Which is Judaism.

Jovanni:

And that's what they're portraying.

Jovanni:

But if they here in the United States is that the majority of Zionists aren't Jews.

Jovanni:

The majority of Zionists in the United States are non-Jews.

Jovanni:

Here in the United, here in, in San Antonio, we have the church,

Jovanni:

the the pastor John Hae, he runs the church what's it called?

Jovanni:

A Cornerstone, cornerstone church.

Jovanni:

It's a big mega church here in San Antonio.

Jovanni:

They have tv, they have media, they have all that they, it's a huge church here and

Jovanni:

they're a mega Zionist Christian church.

Jovanni:

Yeah, they're a Christian church, and they're mega Zionists, right?

Jovanni:

They have, they founded this program called this organization called CUFI,

Jovanni:

which is Christian Christian Friends of Israel, I think it's called, Christian

Jovanni:

Friends of Israel, and they do this fundraising, and they send money to

Jovanni:

Israel to to fund the settlements and all that, and yada, yada, yada, right?

Jovanni:

And they're not, yeah, so it's something that's been internalized here in the

Jovanni:

United States, particularly a lot of people in the professional class,

Jovanni:

like your friend, many of them have internalized this ideology, this idea,

Jovanni:

and part of it is what you say, because Which what happens to you is that if you

Jovanni:

want to get ahead, you have to pretty much play along with everybody else.

Jovanni:

If, you say he was I think it was a Polish who said, if you want to get, if

Jovanni:

you want to get ahead in your career, you don't want to rock the boat too

Jovanni:

much, so you pretty much internalize, you pretty much adopt and internalize

Jovanni:

and, all the, all this ideology of this people that surrounds you.

Jovanni:

Does that make sense?

Jovanni:

Yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah, no, and that's the thing.

Selena Gonzales:

And that's been probably the most, there's been one of the other

Selena Gonzales:

struggles is that, in, in adopting, or not adopting, but feeling I guess

Selena Gonzales:

combining with this other family, right?

Selena Gonzales:

This Palestinian family, who I consider my family, because sometimes people will

Selena Gonzales:

say wait, how are you related to them?

Selena Gonzales:

But here's the thing.

Selena Gonzales:

I've known these people since before I became a mom, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They have welcomed me into their homes.

Selena Gonzales:

They've welcomed my daughter into their homes.

Selena Gonzales:

Like they're my family.

Selena Gonzales:

And so over the years, seeing them get older and get married

Selena Gonzales:

and whatever, and they've seen my daughter grow up and whatnot.

Selena Gonzales:

And over the years they'll tell me they've seen like this and I don't have a big

Selena Gonzales:

platform, but it's bigger than theirs.

Selena Gonzales:

So it's like they, they see the sort of the attention that I've gotten in these

Selena Gonzales:

number of followers on my social media and they'll send me these things, right?

Selena Gonzales:

About Palestine.

Selena Gonzales:

And they'll say Selly, post this Selly, you have to talk about this.

Selena Gonzales:

And they call me Selly.

Selena Gonzales:

And and it's been a really hard thing to It's not something that I feel

Selena Gonzales:

embarrassed about, it's something that I have felt fearful of, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And that, and it's something that I, it's behavior that I now

Selena Gonzales:

feel embarrassed about, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Because I, that was such a bad experience in my early 20s to be,

Selena Gonzales:

accused of being an anti Semite, to be afraid for my life and safety, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Somebody essentially saying I know where you live and I want you dead,

Selena Gonzales:

essentially is what they're saying, right?

Selena Gonzales:

By mailing a death threat to your home.

Selena Gonzales:

Like, all of that was it was enough to, it wasn't enough to keep me silent

Selena Gonzales:

completely, like I would do these things like every year I would give money to

Selena Gonzales:

the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund and just like mentioning here and there

Selena Gonzales:

these things, But anything that was a little bit more incendiary like they

Selena Gonzales:

would want me to repost things from Al Jazeera, and it's just oh, I can't I will

Selena Gonzales:

be cancelled sort of thing I won't get another, I won't have my voice out there.

Selena Gonzales:

But it's always something that I've been able to speak about in person or challenge

Selena Gonzales:

people on anytime I've met someone.

Selena Gonzales:

Somebody who's from Israel.

Selena Gonzales:

It's Oh, tell me a little bit more about to the point where some of my friends

Selena Gonzales:

will be like, if someone said they're from Israel, they'd be like, Oh, Sally don't, I

Selena Gonzales:

wouldn't want to leave me alone with them.

Selena Gonzales:

And I wouldn't, attack them or anything.

Selena Gonzales:

I was just like, tell me more about your experience.

Selena Gonzales:

Because this is what I've seen, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Because I felt like it was important for people to know the other side.

Selena Gonzales:

So in these little ways being able to do this, but after all of this

Selena Gonzales:

has kicked off to have the number of writers to have Poets, for a ceasefire

Selena Gonzales:

kidlit authors for a ceasefire.

Selena Gonzales:

To have so many people within that industry say, this is

Selena Gonzales:

not okay, has been huge.

Selena Gonzales:

To have these conversations at the, we have these big awards and whatnot,

Selena Gonzales:

and then to sit around like at the bar afterwards and be like, How has

Selena Gonzales:

that, because there's people with much bigger platforms, with much more to

Selena Gonzales:

lose, so to speak, than me, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Who, we're still afraid, right?

Selena Gonzales:

People who are, or they feel bad, or we've had to have these like tough,

Selena Gonzales:

tearful conversations with editors, or with agents, because some of

Selena Gonzales:

them, they grew up in Israel, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Like they're from there, and so you don't want to, You don't want to hurt

Selena Gonzales:

people that you know, you don't want to hurt people that you work with,

Selena Gonzales:

but the tide is shifting and there's, this is a time of reckoning and people

Selena Gonzales:

really need to understand that whatever they've been brought up to to believe

Selena Gonzales:

and support, that it might be time to question those allegiances, and

Selena Gonzales:

that's a tough thing, it's a tough And so yeah, it's it feels a little bit

Selena Gonzales:

safer to speak out now, a little bit.

Selena Gonzales:

But yeah, some of some of what's been going on over, over the last 20

Jovanni:

years.

Jovanni:

What advice would you give to another American journalist writing on this

Jovanni:

topic, looking back what happened to you?

Selena Gonzales:

I get back to your question.

Selena Gonzales:

It did honestly scare me away a little bit from journalists.

Selena Gonzales:

Here's what it made me think was this whole idea of this Joseph Medill

Selena Gonzales:

quote, which something along the lines of telling the truth fearlessly.

Selena Gonzales:

It made me really question what is the truth?

Selena Gonzales:

What is the truth?

Selena Gonzales:

If here I have received these skills from what was then considered the top school

Selena Gonzales:

in journalism, and despite all the respect that I had for that piece of paper, or

Selena Gonzales:

that I received for having that, those letters there were still people saying,

Selena Gonzales:

oh, but you can't touch this, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And to see how all of that those sympathies are played upon like the fact

Selena Gonzales:

that we all learn about the Holocaust in school and in Texas now it's law you

Selena Gonzales:

have to spend two, I think two weeks on it, but we don't learn about the

Selena Gonzales:

Native American Holocaust the Erasure of

Jovanni:

Because it's too divisive, they say.

Jovanni:

So they're cutting curriculum on, on Native American they're cutting

Jovanni:

curriculum on African American slavery.

Jovanni:

They're cutting all these curriculums Chicano, on Chicano

Jovanni:

history because it's too divisive.

Jovanni:

But yet, you have to learn about the Holocaust.

Selena Gonzales:

You have to learn about the Holocaust.

Selena Gonzales:

And that's the sad part, because that was a horrific point in history, right?

Selena Gonzales:

But it's like, why is that the one thing?

Selena Gonzales:

And it really makes you wonder how that plays into the propaganda machine.

Selena Gonzales:

And that's why it's also important to have the number of Jewish Americans

Selena Gonzales:

and Jews all over the world, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Who are like, hey, not in our name.

Selena Gonzales:

You're not going to do this anymore, right?

Selena Gonzales:

This is not okay.

Selena Gonzales:

Because they see.

Selena Gonzales:

the money that is funneled into it, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They see what the larger the larger they see the bigger problem.

Selena Gonzales:

But I think to journalists, I don't know, for me, it became a question

Selena Gonzales:

of what is the truth, right?

Selena Gonzales:

If we're going to tell the truth fearlessly, can the truth be

Selena Gonzales:

sought in other forms of writing?

Selena Gonzales:

Because at this point, I had begun to, as a student, and then later on facilitating

Selena Gonzales:

some of these programs, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Taking classes in Poetry and screenwriting and creative nonfiction those became forms

Selena Gonzales:

of writing that I explored just through my job and realizing the truth can be

Selena Gonzales:

told in many ways, or in the plays that I was a part of as a young actress the

Selena Gonzales:

truth can be explored in these other ways.

Selena Gonzales:

As a writer, I, that very much turned me off, right?

Selena Gonzales:

The fact that nobody had my back and instead said don't touch this.

Selena Gonzales:

What's the point, right?

Selena Gonzales:

What's the freaking point?

Selena Gonzales:

If one of the most, for me, this was, and it continues to be, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Like now I feel like, What was the feeling then is the truth for many

Selena Gonzales:

people now that this is a litmus test.

Selena Gonzales:

This is one of the most important points of our time.

Selena Gonzales:

This is one of the most important issues, I should say, of our time.

Selena Gonzales:

And that should be ignored was ridiculous to me.

Selena Gonzales:

So it's not oh, I never want to report again.

Selena Gonzales:

But it felt this is fraught.

Selena Gonzales:

This entire thing is fraught, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And that has only become more apparent As news media has become more, it's

Selena Gonzales:

become what it is, but no, it's not something that I had any interest in.

Selena Gonzales:

However, I have met some really wonderful journalists over the years that I'm

Selena Gonzales:

just, I'm in awe of, I'm super grateful for people like you, podcasters I'm

Selena Gonzales:

really grateful that you all are doing the work that are continue to seek truth

Selena Gonzales:

and provide historical, geographical, political context, because it is important

Selena Gonzales:

to know that and it is important to be to to explore the truth in various formats.

Selena Gonzales:

But yeah, for me, it became I have sought other forms, and.

Jovanni:

Absolutely.

Jovanni:

Absolutely.

Jovanni:

Celine, I know we hit up our time.

Jovanni:

I wanted to ask you, I know one of the things that fascinated me speaking

Jovanni:

with you was, it wasn't another topic.

Jovanni:

It was your time in China.

Jovanni:

You said you worked in China for a bit and whatnot.

Jovanni:

I know we're in a time crunch.

Jovanni:

You have.

Jovanni:

Okay.

Selena Gonzales:

We did some of the unpacking last night, and no, we

Selena Gonzales:

can go a little longer, it's okay.

Selena Gonzales:

Okay,

Jovanni:

all right, so yeah I'm gonna move topics we'll move topics

Jovanni:

toward, from Palestine to China now.

Jovanni:

You mentioned China also earlier of how the Chinese view Palestine,

Jovanni:

they see Palestine, not Israel.

Jovanni:

It's fascinating, to learn when we talked that, that night at the city council

Jovanni:

that, that you lived and you worked in China and you go frequently there.

Jovanni:

You mentioned that your your sister lives there now?

Jovanni:

Yeah.

Jovanni:

And your daughter is doing a gap year there as well.

Jovanni:

Yeah.

Jovanni:

We're in an undeclared new Cold War against China, right?

Jovanni:

The Center for Economic and Business Research forecasts

Jovanni:

China will overtake the U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

by, economically by 2030.

Jovanni:

U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

Citigroup predicts that the takeover will most likely occur in

Jovanni:

2030 in the middle of the decade.

Jovanni:

U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

intelligence report predicts China will be the largest economic power by 2030.

Jovanni:

So you have all this magic number 2030, right?

Jovanni:

There's a RAND report, and RAND is, it's a think, the RAND, the RAND corporations,

Jovanni:

think tech, they often write these reports that they're That military

Jovanni:

leaders and political leaders read and base their policies and strategies on.

Jovanni:

So they wrote a report, they estimate that the U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

has a short window to close this gap and contain China, right?

Jovanni:

And this was written back in 2016.

Jovanni:

And they wrote a report entitled War with China, thinking through the unthinkable.

Jovanni:

They were making the case.

Jovanni:

That the U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

and China are heading towards a collision.

Jovanni:

It's unavailable, right?

Jovanni:

It's unavailable.

Jovanni:

It's going to a collision.

Jovanni:

And they theorize how this, how this collision might occur.

Jovanni:

Scenario might go and it gives different scenarios and how this collision between

Jovanni:

the United States and China go on.

Jovanni:

You've seen the rhetoric being ramped up against China and, both in both

Jovanni:

parties, the Democrats and Republicans, you've seen right now there is there is

Jovanni:

sanctions and there is tariffs placed on China for different different items

Jovanni:

right now, China pretty much leads, leads the world in EVs, in electric vehicles.

Jovanni:

However, you don't see Chinese electric vehicles here and they're

Jovanni:

being blocked for a reason.

Jovanni:

There is, there's corporate interests here that, that doesn't want, the Chinese

Jovanni:

electric vehicle in this market here.

Jovanni:

And they're leading the world also, in renewable energy as well.

Jovanni:

And they're doing a whole bunch of fascinating things in China, they

Jovanni:

went China in 1949, they were among the 15 poorest nations in the world.

Jovanni:

They're doing a whole bunch of fascinating things in China, they

Jovanni:

went China in 1949, they were among the 15 poorest nations in the world.

Jovanni:

And in a matter of, I believe it was a matter of three decades or so they

Jovanni:

became the second economy in the world.

Jovanni:

Some say they're already the number one economy in the world.

Selena Gonzales:

I was going to say, I think that prediction

Selena Gonzales:

has come true already.

Jovanni:

So based on your observations and conversations that you've had

Jovanni:

with people in China do you feel that the Chinese have the same anxieties

Jovanni:

towards the United States that the Americans have against China?

Selena Gonzales:

No, is my brief answer.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't I don't the people that I've met and and have talked with I don't

Selena Gonzales:

think that they, But I don't know, I've never felt any kind of like animosity

Selena Gonzales:

or any, here's the thing, the way of Chinese thinking is very different.

Selena Gonzales:

So I'm going to give you the example of there's a lot of proverbs, right?

Selena Gonzales:

They live by a lot of proverbs.

Selena Gonzales:

There's these saying, these little dichos, right?

Selena Gonzales:

That they go by and sometimes I don't understand, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Like I, I had my last gig in China was a two year I was a head

Selena Gonzales:

librarian at an international school, and a Yo was my counterpart.

Selena Gonzales:

She spoke, she was the Chinese librarian, and sometimes she

Selena Gonzales:

would give these proverbs and I would say, what does it mean, Yo?

Selena Gonzales:

What does it mean?

Selena Gonzales:

And there's this one, there's this one it has some, it has to do with,

Selena Gonzales:

Like Rams, like the goats, right?

Selena Gonzales:

That kind of play king of the mountain, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And idea that they, that the Chinese I don't want to say that the Chinese, but

Selena Gonzales:

the saying is something and I'm going to butcher this, but the saying is that you

Selena Gonzales:

don't want to be the goat on the top.

Selena Gonzales:

Why?

Selena Gonzales:

Because everybody's trying to knock him off of his place.

Selena Gonzales:

So essentially, let the US think they're number one, go for it.

Selena Gonzales:

You're number one.

Selena Gonzales:

We're fine being considered number two.

Selena Gonzales:

And this was something that I remember being shared with me when I lived there

Selena Gonzales:

25 years ago, or however long ago, that wasn't that long ago, it must have been 22

Selena Gonzales:

years ago, whenever I first lived there.

Selena Gonzales:

That was something shared with me and is something that students

Selena Gonzales:

will live by, artists, right?

Selena Gonzales:

This idea of being number one and being top, I don't want to say

Selena Gonzales:

it's a uniquely American thing, but it's a very, USA, right?

Selena Gonzales:

It's different there that, and I have heard that ram, goat, proverb or,

Selena Gonzales:

I'm not saying the word correctly.

Selena Gonzales:

Is it proverb?

Selena Gonzales:

The same.

Selena Gonzales:

Same.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

I've heard that expressed multiple times over the years.

Selena Gonzales:

I can tell you, at least just by what I've seen, they're leagues ahead of us.

Selena Gonzales:

They just are.

Selena Gonzales:

The electric, and I'm glad you brought that up, the electric vehicles alone.

Selena Gonzales:

It's a marvel.

Selena Gonzales:

I've gone back and forth over the last 20 years and, a nation that

Selena Gonzales:

is building itself up there's going to be pollution, right?

Selena Gonzales:

So for a while, that was something that made, it was something that made You

Selena Gonzales:

know, some of that time unpleasant in a city like Guangzhou, which is their,

Selena Gonzales:

essentially their Chicago, right?

Selena Gonzales:

I want to say it's their third largest city, it's massive.

Selena Gonzales:

Like with the surrounding areas, I want to say it's 17 million people.

Selena Gonzales:

It's huge.

Selena Gonzales:

And, there were days where the sky was not unpleasant.

Selena Gonzales:

Go back this last time Giovanni was, whoo, I keep saying

Selena Gonzales:

Giovanni the skies were clear.

Selena Gonzales:

The, Street quiet, and I used to live on a very busy street.

Selena Gonzales:

It's peaceful, it's calm, people pull over and they will take a little

Selena Gonzales:

cartridge out of the back of their, they take the battery out, put it in a

Selena Gonzales:

charging station, take a fresh battery out of the charging station, pop it

Selena Gonzales:

in their car and move along and it's like Jetsons, it's incredible the way

Selena Gonzales:

the city has cleaned up the smell, the sight, that it's just, it's impressive.

Selena Gonzales:

And with the number of people that they have in their society, the way that

Selena Gonzales:

they are able to move forward with the available technology is just it's beyond

Selena Gonzales:

impressive, and yeah, this idea of they're gonna, yeah, they're ahead of us.

Jovanni:

Not only that, but also with their built in what do you

Jovanni:

call it, breed of built in built in road initiative, which is a massive

Jovanni:

development project that pretty much they're expanding across the world.

Jovanni:

They're connecting they're wanting to connect East Asia with Eurasia,

Jovanni:

through a massive project.

Jovanni:

Through massive, we'd call it New Silk Road, through massive networks

Jovanni:

of roads and rail lines and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Jovanni:

Pretty much if if you see the geography the last three, 300,

Jovanni:

304 years, 300, 400 years, right?

Jovanni:

The economy or the global economy has been centralized in the Atlantic, right?

Jovanni:

In the Atlantic powers, so you have the United States, you have The

Jovanni:

British, you have the French, you have the Spaniards, the Portuguese.

Jovanni:

So everything, all the major traits has been occurring in the Atlantic

Jovanni:

sector of the world in Central Asia has pretty much been, the the ca you

Jovanni:

know, where it wasn't the case back.

Jovanni:

Before that, now the, all the connection between East and West through the

Jovanni:

BRII initiative and all that, and not only that, because now they're also

Jovanni:

the initiative is also developing in Africa, developing projects in

Jovanni:

South America, so all the developing projects to connect the world, into

Jovanni:

this network it's quite remarkable, and this is, And that's also part of the

Jovanni:

anxiety that the West is having because they're seeing that their influence and

Jovanni:

power is pretty much drizzling away.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah, and I guess for me, I just wonder what's wrong with that?

Selena Gonzales:

But really, it's because at the end of the day, there's Maybe not a handful,

Selena Gonzales:

but relatively relative to the greater population, there's not that many

Selena Gonzales:

people who have a whole lot to lose.

Selena Gonzales:

You know what I'm saying?

Selena Gonzales:

Like, when I speak of the electric vehicle situation, it's not just

Selena Gonzales:

wow, check them out, they're ahead.

Selena Gonzales:

It's also there is actually a way out of This horrible situation

Selena Gonzales:

we put our planet in, right?

Selena Gonzales:

This reliance that we have on fossil fuels, this we're creative people, but

Selena Gonzales:

we pretend to think we cannot there is no other way when there absolutely isn't.

Selena Gonzales:

For me, it's inspiring to see a society that is not only doing

Selena Gonzales:

it, but that is doing it quickly and for the greater good, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And very much.

Selena Gonzales:

Okay.

Selena Gonzales:

So who cares if we're not number one anymore?

Selena Gonzales:

I know the people who care are the ones who have the most to lose,

Selena Gonzales:

but there's not that many of them.

Selena Gonzales:

And yeah,

Jovanni:

also it's an identity issue.

Jovanni:

Also, it's also an identity issue.

Jovanni:

It's a conflict to identity.

Jovanni:

You're putting in question your own identity, when you're being, when you're

Jovanni:

seeing that in front of your face, and that's what brings out the, you, the

Jovanni:

anxiety, and and I can just relate it to transferring to the military, for

Jovanni:

example, You see people that grew up in the military, since they were young

Jovanni:

soldiers, they went through all the ranks, and they retire, let's say,

Jovanni:

starting major, they did all the ranks and everything they have of this influence

Jovanni:

over soldiers and power, and they have all this respect and this prestige, and

Jovanni:

all of a sudden, now they're retired, now they're just average Joe's again, just

Jovanni:

average person again, and people people walk by them and they're acknowledging

Jovanni:

whereas before when they were walking with their uniform, people, salute or call

Jovanni:

themselves a major and stuff like that.

Jovanni:

But now they just walk in, so it becomes this identity issue for people,

Selena Gonzales:

yeah.

Selena Gonzales:

And that's what, that's the sad part about it, right?

Selena Gonzales:

That just for the sake of ego and preserving ego and this idea of being

Selena Gonzales:

the strongest and the best and the most powerful and the richest, for that

Selena Gonzales:

reason alone, they would start a war.

Selena Gonzales:

With Russia and China who would kick our ass and I mean they just

Selena Gonzales:

would like the number of people alone I shouldn't speculate on that.

Selena Gonzales:

But what I'm saying is that's the part that scares me I don't know who

Selena Gonzales:

cares who takes over economically, but the fact that they could pull our

Selena Gonzales:

You know, that they could pull us into a war that would devastate families

Selena Gonzales:

and economies and the environment.

Selena Gonzales:

That's the part that scares me, just for the sake of being one, just for the

Selena Gonzales:

sake of being the most respected it's it's shameful because Here's what China

Selena Gonzales:

gets like they have billions of people and everybody has enough to eat, and

Selena Gonzales:

everybody has a home and nobody is subject to the fear of guns and gun violence.

Selena Gonzales:

Alone is remarkable.

Selena Gonzales:

I know they want the, again, the propaganda machine wants to go

Selena Gonzales:

on and on about human rights.

Selena Gonzales:

What is a human right?

Selena Gonzales:

What is a human right?

Selena Gonzales:

Because every time I return from China and I just take a walk I want

Selena Gonzales:

to walk through my neighborhood.

Selena Gonzales:

I feel fear flood my system, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Like ice water in my veins.

Selena Gonzales:

It's a, it's an ugly feeling to live in peace and then to suddenly

Selena Gonzales:

re enter a where you feel fear.

Selena Gonzales:

And the sad part is a lot of us don't even know what that feels like to live

Selena Gonzales:

in safety, that community where I lived before Guangzhou, it's It's one of the

Selena Gonzales:

most international places, probably in the world, definitely in China.

Selena Gonzales:

It's a port city, right?

Selena Gonzales:

So it's you have the mainland, you have Hong Kong, and then you have the mainland.

Selena Gonzales:

So near, you have Shenzhen, Zhuhai, and these, all of these cities are

Selena Gonzales:

just like, oh my god, they've been blowing up over the last 20 years.

Selena Gonzales:

And I think, I want to say that China's trying to make it to where they are all

Selena Gonzales:

united in a mega city kind of thing.

Selena Gonzales:

And they're even building these bridges, I want to say, to Macau.

Selena Gonzales:

I shouldn't even speculate on all that, but I know they're wanting

Selena Gonzales:

to make, they're making efforts to make it like a, I don't know what

Selena Gonzales:

you call it, metropolis, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Like the way Dallas Fort Worth is, right?

Selena Gonzales:

And but anyways, it's like a port city so that you have a metro plan.

Selena Gonzales:

There you go.

Selena Gonzales:

And they want to make it the biggest city in the world.

Selena Gonzales:

And if anybody can do it, it's China.

Selena Gonzales:

So it's a happening spot.

Selena Gonzales:

And there's people from everywhere.

Selena Gonzales:

And and this neighborhood where I lived in when I last lived there.

Selena Gonzales:

I would talk to them, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Cause that's where all the restaurants were, all the bars.

Selena Gonzales:

And this was pre COVID.

Selena Gonzales:

And so I remember chatting with different people, and a lot more Latin Americans

Selena Gonzales:

than I had ever seen in years prior.

Selena Gonzales:

Lot, lot of Latin Americans, but also people from India, from

Selena Gonzales:

the Middle East from everywhere.

Selena Gonzales:

And I would ask them I'd say, Oh, do you whether they had been, it was

Selena Gonzales:

their first time or they'd been there for years or going back and forth.

Selena Gonzales:

Do you like it?

Selena Gonzales:

Oh yeah, I love it.

Selena Gonzales:

And what do you love?

Selena Gonzales:

And of course people can talk about.

Selena Gonzales:

Whatever, the history, the food, the this, the that, the culture, the people, but

Selena Gonzales:

every single time, and quite often you met men, businessmen traveling on their own or

Selena Gonzales:

maybe getting a start with their families, every single time, the first answer was,

Selena Gonzales:

and it was said with an exhale, it's safe,

Jovanni:

right?

Selena Gonzales:

Bafti.

Selena Gonzales:

And you felt this more, you felt that exhale more and that and the gravity of

Selena Gonzales:

the words, you felt it most among people who were from either war torn countries

Selena Gonzales:

or countries where there was just more gun violence like there is in the US.

Selena Gonzales:

And that's huge.

Selena Gonzales:

That's a fundamental human right, right?

Selena Gonzales:

If you look at these like psychological that pyramid of psychological,

Selena Gonzales:

of needs, of human needs rather.

Selena Gonzales:

And it starts there, right?

Selena Gonzales:

Safety.

Selena Gonzales:

It's there with like food and water and shelter.

Selena Gonzales:

Like it's a basic human necessity.

Selena Gonzales:

Yeah, when anytime this rights thing is brought up I'm just

Selena Gonzales:

like, we don't even know.

Selena Gonzales:

We don't even know what that is like to be, to live in a safe way.

Selena Gonzales:

I don't even know if I'm answering your questions.

Selena Gonzales:

I'm just going, I'm just going on and on.

Jovanni:

You are.

Jovanni:

So I want to be respectful of your time.

Jovanni:

I think this is a good place to stop to pause for the day.

Jovanni:

Went from a low to a high, went from the devastating genocide that's happening

Jovanni:

in Palestine, you're experiencing.

Jovanni:

And trying to tell the story from your perspective, from what you experienced

Jovanni:

and how the way you were attacked.

Jovanni:

And we talked about how the narrative is so tightly controlled in this

Jovanni:

country when it comes to Israel.

Jovanni:

But that narrative is, as you see, it's falling apart.

Jovanni:

And with all the protests that's going on and everything, they don't no longer

Jovanni:

control the narrative through, through, through a more subtle means, they don't.

Jovanni:

And now they're getting more, more violent with the, you saw what happened with the

Jovanni:

the colleges this past summer, the summer, the rest, I know people personally whose

Jovanni:

children took part in the protests in the colleges, and now they're worth, seniors,

Jovanni:

and they're withholding their graduation, because they took part of the, in the in

Jovanni:

the the protests, and now they're becoming more, now because they don't control the

Jovanni:

narrative, the narrative of social media and everything, the, narrative is pretty

Jovanni:

much going in an even playing field.

Jovanni:

Now they're becoming more desperate.

Jovanni:

Now they're becoming more aggressive with it.

Jovanni:

Yeah, and then we ended up with the high with with, with the a more

Jovanni:

optimistic note of how other societies are building themselves up and not

Jovanni:

only building themselves up, but they're building others with them.

Jovanni:

And in a peaceful matter, yeah, thank you so much for coming in, to show,

Jovanni:

any, it was a pleasure having you and discussing this with you today.

Jovanni:

Any last comments you might want to share before we depart?

Selena Gonzales:

Oh, I'm just I'm grateful for the conversation

Selena Gonzales:

and to be able to to chat.

Selena Gonzales:

I did want to invite folks.

Selena Gonzales:

I could show it, but I know it's not on video.

Selena Gonzales:

There's going to be a an ed talk that I'll be a part of.

Selena Gonzales:

This was my old editor at the current.

Selena Gonzales:

He was the editor that's happening at the BRIC at Blue Star, next

Selena Gonzales:

Wednesday, so that's something happening, but I think as far as our

Jovanni:

audiences, right?

Jovanni:

Go to the BRIC.

Jovanni:

For San Antonio audiences that are listening to this podcast,

Jovanni:

go to The Brick and see Selena.

Selena Gonzales:

Go to The Brick next Wednesday.

Selena Gonzales:

But as far as our conversation, Jovanni, I just wanted to say thank you.

Selena Gonzales:

Thank you for having me, thank you for picking my brain and

Selena Gonzales:

for just being, your solidarity.

Selena Gonzales:

It always, as I had expressed before it's, it becomes an enlightening

Selena Gonzales:

conversation when somebody you can provide The political, the historical,

Selena Gonzales:

the geographical context it, it makes the conversation more enriching for

Selena Gonzales:

me and hopefully for your listeners.

Selena Gonzales:

Thank you.

Jovanni:

Thank you.

Jovanni:

Yeah, where can people find your work?

Selena Gonzales:

People can find my work.

Selena Gonzales:

My website is selena.

Selena Gonzales:

space.

Selena Gonzales:

That's X as in x ray, E L E N A dot space, A CE and my picture books

Selena Gonzales:

and my Laia deck, which is full of affirmations and reflections those can

Selena Gonzales:

be purchased wherever books are sold.

Selena Gonzales:

I am a big fan of supporting independent bookstores, but yeah, if it's not

Selena Gonzales:

there, ask for it or the public library.

Jovanni:

Thank you.

Jovanni:

Thank you.

Jovanni:

And for your listeners, thank you for joining us today.

Jovanni:

Please like us, subscribe to our channel.

Jovanni:

We're on YouTube.

Jovanni:

We're on X, we're on Telegram.

Jovanni:

Please share with us, with your friends to help us grow.

Jovanni:

Stay tuned for our next episode.

Jovanni:

Thank you and take care.

Henri:

Money is tight these days for everyone, penny pinching to

Henri:

make it through the month often doesn't give people the funds to

Henri:

contribute to a creator support.

Henri:

So we consider it the highest honor that folks help us fund the podcast

Henri:

any dollar amount they're able.

Henri:

Patreon is the main place to do that.

Henri:

In addition, any support we receive makes sure we can continue to provide

Henri:

our main episodes free for everyone.

Henri:

And for supporters who can donate $10 a month or more, they will be listed

Henri:

right here as an honorary producer.

Henri:

Like these fine folks.

Henri:

Fahim's Everyone Dream, Eric Phillips, Paul Appel, Julie Dupree, Thomas Benson,

Henri:

Janet Hanson, Ren jacob, and Helge Berg.

Henri:

However, if Patreon isn't your style, you can contribute directly through PayPal

Henri:

at PayPal dot me forward slash Fortress on hill, or please check out our store on

Henri:

Spreadshirt for some great Fortress merch.

Henri:

We're on Twitter and @facebook.com at Fortress On A Hill.

Henri:

You can find our full collection of episodes at www dot

Henri:

Fortress On A Hill dot com.

Henri:

Skepticism is one's best armor.

Henri:

Never forget it.

Henri:

We'll see you next time.

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About the Podcast

Fortress On A Hill (FOH) Podcast
Clearing away the BS around U.S. foreign policy, anti-imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war
The United States has become synonymous with empire and endless war, American troops sit in 70% of the world's countries, and yet, most Americans don't know that. The military is joined disproportionately by a 'warrior caste’ whom carry this enormous burden, making a less diverse force and ensuring most of society doesn't see their sacrifice. And American tax dollars, funding hundreds of billions in unnecessary spending on global hegemony, are robbed from the domestic needs of ordinary Americans. We aim to change that. Join Henri, Keagan, Jovanni, Shiloh, and Monisha, six leftist US military veterans, as they discuss how to turn the tide against endless war and repair the damage America has caused abroad.

About your host

Profile picture for Christopher Henrikson

Christopher Henrikson

Chris ‘Henri’ Henrikson is an Iraq war veteran from Portland, OR. He deployed in support of
Operation Noble Eagle at the Pentagon following 9/11 and served two tours in Iraq in
support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. A former MP team leader, Henri also served two years
as a CID drug investigator. Now a journalist, podcaster, writer, and anti-war activist, Henri
no longer supports the lies of imperialism or the PR spin of the politicians, wherever the
source. He seeks to make common cause with anyone tired of jingoistic-driven death
from the American war machine and a desire to protect the innocents of the earth, no
matter their origin. Except Alex Jones. Fuck that guy. Follow him on Twitter at
@henrihateswar. Email him at henri@fortressonahill.com.