Episode 158

Understanding Zionism and anti-Zionism w/ Lia Tarachansky - Ep 158

Published on: 8th August, 2024

Jovanni is joined by Lia Tarachansky, an Israeli-Canadian journalist and filmmaker.  Lia shares her journey from being born in Soviet Ukraine to her family's move to Israel and later to Canada, her career in journalism, and her engagement in Palestinian solidarity work. The discussion delves into the complex layers of the Israel-Palestine conflict, systemic discrimination, and the role of media in decolonizing narratives. Tarchansky also speaks about her latest academic work focusing on the use of augmented reality to bring Palestinian history to Israeli consciousness and reflects on the growing anti-Zionist Jewish movements.

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Transcript
Don:

This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan,

Don:

Jo vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha

Jovanni:

Welcome everyone to Fortress On A hill, a podcast about U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

foreign policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and American way of war.

Jovanni:

I'm Jovanni.

Jovanni:

Thank you for joining us today.

Jovanni:

It's been 296 days since the beginning of the slaughter online stream in Palestine.

Jovanni:

Millions of people around the globe have mobilized calling for an end to

Jovanni:

the bloodshed, in Western countries in particular, for the government to stop

Jovanni:

supporting the Israeli death machine.

Jovanni:

This 77 plus years of Palestinian Israeli conflict is perhaps the

Jovanni:

most well known conflict to a majority of people around the world.

Jovanni:

Thanks to a massive grassroot education campaign that took decades

Jovanni:

to develop, activists have taken many forms of action to educate the public

Jovanni:

on the plight of the Palestinians.

Jovanni:

From writing articles, to writing books, holding community panel

Jovanni:

discussions, to marching in the streets.

Jovanni:

From art making, film screening, to film making.

Jovanni:

One of those people is my guest today, filmmaker and journalist, Leah Tarchansky.

Jovanni:

Leah is an Israeli Canadian journalist and filmmaker born in Soviet Ukraine.

Jovanni:

Her video journalism covered American politics, the Middle East,

Jovanni:

and Canadian Indigenous relations.

Jovanni:

she has made several short, experimental, and feature length films that range in

Jovanni:

style from investigative to experimental for the BBC World, The Guardian, Tel

Jovanni:

Assur, and narrative productions.

Jovanni:

Her film won awards and toured globally.

Jovanni:

Leah is a PhD candidate in media studies.

Jovanni:

She teaches at various film schools in Toronto.

Jovanni:

Honored to have you here, Leah.

Jovanni:

for coming.

Jovanni:

How are you doing today?

Lia:

Good.

Lia:

It's so good to be back here.

Jovanni:

Leah, tell us a bit about yourself, about where you were

Jovanni:

born, how you got to Israel, how you got to Canada, and what got

Jovanni:

you into journalism and filmmaking?

Lia:

I was born in Soviet Union.

Lia:

As you might know, it was a place that had intense systematic

Lia:

and systemic anti Semitism.

Lia:

And, as soon as we could, we did it.

Lia:

Left.

Lia:

We actually left as stateless refugees.

Lia:

We left, having to give up our citizenship.

Lia:

It was a very traumatic experience for my mom.

Lia:

And, we found refuge in Israel, like the vast majority of Israelis.

Lia:

We came out of necessity.

Lia:

my mom was also very much a believer in the project of the Jewish

Lia:

state until we got there and got to see what it actually looks like.

Lia:

what we discovered is that the state of the Jews was actually quite discriminatory

Lia:

to a lot of people, including to new immigrants, even if they are Jews.

Lia:

That I think was a very big shocker for my mom.

Lia:

She never lost her Russian accent, so she never fully was able to integrate

Lia:

in any way, and after, a decade, she decided it's time to, give up.

Lia:

on this project and, she found a job in Canada and brought us here.

Lia:

As soon as I could, I went back.

Lia:

I missed it very much and I spent, half my adult life in Israel Palestine, working

Lia:

as a journalist and as a filmmaker.

Lia:

But what got me into it in the first place was actually Canada.

Lia:

I became very politicized in my undergrad, in my university, and I

Lia:

started doing a lot of solidarity work with Indigenous people here.

Lia:

At the time that I was in my final year of university, there was a

Lia:

big known, land blockade by the Six Nations, on the Six Nations Reserve.

Lia:

Which is part of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.

Lia:

we just, like everyone I knew was sending support and medical, supplies

Lia:

and showing up helping with the blockade and, documenting police abuses.

Lia:

And, unfortunately the blockade didn't succeed to prevent, the.

Lia:

Provincial government was trying to do, including building a giant garbage

Lia:

dump on the land of the reserve.

Lia:

And that was shocking, I, at that point, I think, I was already, I had

Lia:

grown up in the Second Intifada, so I was very keenly aware of political

Lia:

violence, but, to see Indigenous people in Canada after everything they've

Lia:

been through and, there's no dispute.

Lia:

It's not like Israel Palestine, where we say this and they say that.

Lia:

Everyone knows Indigenous people in Canada have been, at the, receiving

Lia:

end of centuries of unbearable violence, and still the government

Lia:

was treating them with contempt and, exploiting them and their lands.

Lia:

And, the more Indigenous solidarity things I went to, whether it was,

Lia:

Mohawks at Tainanega or, Algonquins at Barrier Lake, the more I noticed

Lia:

that there was no media there.

Lia:

The media was just not interested.

Lia:

This is 2006, 7, 8, 9.

Lia:

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission wouldn't start for another decade.

Lia:

And the media just didn't think that people cared and didn't send

Lia:

journalists and didn't support those Indigenous people, didn't do

Lia:

investigations about logging companies that were stealing land, quarry

Lia:

companies that were, mining the soil.

Lia:

They just didn't care.

Lia:

And I found that shocking.

Lia:

So I started.

Lia:

photographing, filming, writing myself, at first from the activist

Lia:

perspective, from the solidarity perspective, and eventually, I learned

Lia:

enough about journalism to, get a job in journalism and the rest is history.

Jovanni:

Yeah, I think I learned about you through your journalism, that's why I

Jovanni:

first, learned about you through, the Real News Network, used to do a lot of coverage

Jovanni:

and correspondence from the Middle East back then, Then you are promoting

Jovanni:

your film, on the side of the road.

Jovanni:

I remember seeing that.

Jovanni:

And you were interviewed, I wanna say by Paul J if I, I'm

Jovanni:

not mistaken about that film.

Jovanni:

So I went to the film, solid film, talked to several people here in Texas,

Jovanni:

of the Palestinian Solidarity Group.

Jovanni:

And we decided to host you, so that's why I got in contact with

Jovanni:

you, and you were really quick.

Jovanni:

I remember sending you an email saying, oh, it was an email, or I

Jovanni:

forgot how I got in contact with you.

Jovanni:

I think it was, Leah, I am so and so from Texas.

Jovanni:

I just watched your film, and we want to screen it here.

Jovanni:

How can we get you here?

Jovanni:

And.

Jovanni:

You say, how fast can you bring me here?

Jovanni:

And then, we made it happen.

Jovanni:

We made it happen.

Jovanni:

And then we did, we communicated with other, Palestinian Solidarity,

Jovanni:

groups in Dallas and Austin, and we made a Texas tour out of it.

Jovanni:

So we brought you in, You were here with us for about a week or so,

Jovanni:

it's been that nature, right?

Jovanni:

And, I hope we treat you well here, and I'll bring you back.

Lia:

Absolutely.

Lia:

Texas part of that film's tour was, unforgettable, for sure.

Jovanni:

Yeah, how was your nap?

Jovanni:

Was your first time interacting with Americans on this topic, right?

Lia:

I covered Obama's first election.

Lia:

I was in DC in our studio in 2008 when Obama was first, rising to power.

Lia:

my grandparents lived in New York, so I had a bunch of interactions with Americans

Lia:

in general, but not about Palestine.

Jovanni:

Not about Palestine.

Lia:

No.

Lia:

You think Americans are conservative on Palestine, you should try Canadians.

Jovanni:

Oh really?

Lia:

Oh my goodness, it's so hard to, Canadians have this,

Jovanni:

I think they're a nice neighbor.

Lia:

Yeah, Canadians have this what you might in America call Midwestern attitude,

Lia:

that things don't have to be political, let's not stir the pot, don't talk about

Lia:

controversial things, and as a result of that kind of attitude, you can excuse

Lia:

genocide, you can excuse, indigenous land theft, it's just impossible to talk to

Lia:

Canadians about Israel and Palestine, because they just immediately shut down.

Lia:

when it comes to government, people whose job it is to create foreign

Lia:

policy, sell weapons, allow arms deals.

Lia:

Canada is deeply involved in the Israeli Canadian arms trade, of course,

Lia:

which is in the billions and billions.

Lia:

They don't want to hear it.

Lia:

In their perspective, Israel is under attack, and Israel is an ally,

Lia:

and Israel needs Canadian support.

Lia:

Of course, they don't sell weapons to the Palestinians.

Lia:

Palestinians are perceived as like these Barely capable of governing themselves,

Lia:

children that need this patronizing support in the form of charity and

Lia:

training, but God forbid, actual support.

Jovanni:

They've taken a hard line and shielding any

Jovanni:

criticism to Israel right now.

Jovanni:

I'm not aware if they made any laws.

Jovanni:

I know Germany has made laws.

Jovanni:

Condemning, activism against activists and, their anti Semitic laws that

Jovanni:

they put in, they got jail time and fines and everything like that.

Jovanni:

But I'm not aware of Canada has taken this route.

Lia:

Oh, yeah, the Canadian government has been low key prosecuting and

Lia:

persecuting Palestine solidarity activists intensely this year and has for decades.

Lia:

They've decided to really aggressively prosecute a group of 11 activists that

Lia:

called out the CEO of Indigo, which is a very big book chain here in Canada.

Lia:

She's a very famous supporter of the Israeli army and she has, she's a very

Lia:

big donor to an organization called Friends of the Israeli Defense Forces,

Lia:

which is an organization that sends Canadians to fight in the Israeli army,

Lia:

and they called her out on it and this symbolic, creative, nonviolent action,

Lia:

and the government continues to this day after nine months to prosecute

Lia:

them and has made their life miserable.

Lia:

If you're a Palestinian, and you, support Palestine, you'll get fired, you'll get

Lia:

accused of anti Semitism, the Toronto municipality just banned, wearing the

Lia:

keffiyeh, which is the national symbol, it's a scarf, of Palestine in the, City

Lia:

Hall, it's the first time that a cultural organization garment has been banned.

Lia:

And there's all these kinds of reverberations, even though our mayor

Lia:

for the first time is actually a very radical left, has been a woman

Lia:

who's been fighting for, human rights and environmental justice for

Lia:

decades, and is very known for that.

Lia:

So that she gets inside of that system, she gets devoured by it.

Lia:

So it's been Obscene watching what's going on university campuses, watching what the

Lia:

legislative branches have been doing, and just seeing, the level of self censorship

Lia:

that people are forced into because they are afraid to lose their job, and not

Lia:

being able to support their families.

Lia:

For basically saying all people have the right to live, all people

Lia:

have, lives are equally important.

Jovanni:

Thank you.

Jovanni:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jovanni:

It's unfortunate.

Jovanni:

It's sad.

Jovanni:

And right now, the West, the whole collective West is,

Jovanni:

showing itself right now.

Jovanni:

it's showing its hypocrisy throughout all these years when they point

Jovanni:

fingers of others human rights and democracy and everything

Jovanni:

And, right now, they're doing everything bending over backwards.

Jovanni:

to go against everything they have pontificated in the past,

Lia:

and it's I don't even know if you know this, but it's landing on

Lia:

deaf ears the Israeli public is.

Lia:

Completely embroiled in this narrative that everyone in the West is against

Lia:

them, us, all the countries are supporting the terrorists, that there's

Lia:

antisemitic persecution everywhere, the Jews are just afraid to go on the

Lia:

street outside of Israel that it's so terrible, and it's not entirely untrue.

Lia:

I don't know about in America, but here there's been a lot of attacks

Lia:

on Jewish people on the streets, a lot of bombs called into Jewish

Lia:

high schools and Hebrew schools.

Lia:

There's been a lot of anti Semitism for sure, but to propagate this idea that

Lia:

Jews are not safe in Canada is nonsense.

Lia:

Yeah, Canada at some point actually announced an embargo on non lethal weapon

Lia:

trade with Israel, and I remember the way it was covered in Israel was like, Canada?

Lia:

Who cares?

Lia:

Fuck them.

Lia:

And it's, Israelis have no conception of the level of Canadian support

Lia:

that they actually rely on.

Lia:

Whether it's batteries for UAVs or, components for, the massive arsenal of

Lia:

aerial, and land based weaponry that we use against Gaza, the Canadian components

Lia:

that Israel relies on, so it's No matter what the West does, the Israeli narrative

Lia:

kind of remains the same narrative.

Lia:

And you hear that in the news, you hear that on the radio, you

Lia:

hear that in the social media.

Lia:

This idea that America is against us now, Canada is against us, we

Lia:

have no allies in the world, we're alone, we're surrounded by enemies.

Lia:

Yemen is launching rockets at us, Lebanon's launching rockets at us, the

Lia:

Gazans are holding hostage our people and launching rockets at us, and if Jordan

Lia:

attacked tomorrow, nobody would care, and we are completely surrounded by enemies,

Lia:

That's the self image that Israel has had for the last ten months,

Jovanni:

Even after seeing standing ovations in the U.

Jovanni:

S.

Jovanni:

Congress for Benjamin Netanyahu?

Lia:

But he's always had standing that has more to do with American internal

Lia:

politics than it does with Israel.

Lia:

Millions of Americans are evangelical Christians who believe in the Zionist

Lia:

project for entirely anti Semitic reasons.

Lia:

And for them, support for Israel is crucial in their, bizarre

Lia:

prophecy about the end of the world.

Lia:

Netanyahu's support in America has a lot more to do with American

Lia:

internal politics than it does with supporting actual Israel.

Jovanni:

Absolutely.

Jovanni:

Let's go back to your film on the side of the road.

Jovanni:

There you gave a glimpse of Israeli society and polity.

Jovanni:

You show the legislative body, at the time, I believe that was

Jovanni:

in 2014, they were passing this anti Nakba, law in the Knesset.

Jovanni:

I recall there was this one lone legislator that was arguing against it.

Jovanni:

There was Israeli activists going out to the streets in support of

Jovanni:

the Nakba education in the middle of Israeli Independence Day, which is

Jovanni:

coincided with the same day of Nakba.

Jovanni:

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Lia:

Sure, yeah.

Lia:

So the Nakba law was first introduced in the slate of anti democratic laws.

Lia:

When Netanyahu was first elected in this century, you might know he was prime

Lia:

minister in 1996 for three years, but, he's like more or less consecutive,

Lia:

more than a decade of rule started more or less on 2009 and his government,

Lia:

which progressively has gotten further and further to the right, has over the

Lia:

years proposed and passed dozens of anti democratic laws that are either repressive

Lia:

for political reasons or, regressive for religious reasons, anti liberal laws that

Lia:

intend to introduce more, biblical, ideas.

Lia:

More of a halakhic rule into Israeli life and more, regressive rules that take away

Lia:

people's freedom of speech and their right to self assembly and basic human rights.

Lia:

One of those very well known laws was a law that was proposed in 2009, and

Lia:

originally what the law said was that if you talk about the Nakba, which is

Lia:

the Palestinian word for, or the Arabic word for catastrophe, and refers to

Lia:

the, mass displacement of Palestinians that, started, even before the state

Lia:

was created, but really in 1948 when Israel, declared itself and two thirds

Lia:

of the Palestinians became refugees.

Lia:

If you talk about that history on the Israeli Independence Day,

Lia:

you go to jail for three years.

Lia:

And that was the original, kind of law.

Lia:

And then the version of it that passed in 2011, was that if you're, an institution

Lia:

that gets any kind of funding from the state, so let's say a school or a

Lia:

university, if you mentioned the NAGPA on Independence Day, you get defunded.

Lia:

And of course, as you can imagine, that sent a chill effect through, Most

Lia:

institutions And also, most people didn't look at the details of the law.

Lia:

They just heard about the Nakba law in the news and realized that any mention

Lia:

of the Nakba comes with consequences.

Lia:

And of course, the people it had the most impact on are

Lia:

Palestinian citizens of Israel.

Lia:

So about 20 percent of Israelis are Palestinians who were not expelled

Lia:

in 1948, and their descendants.

Lia:

And for them, the establishment of the state may be a great thing, but most

Lia:

of the time has been catastrophic.

Lia:

Because of course, since Israel was created, there have been hundreds of

Lia:

new, communities created, villages and towns and cities for Israeli Jews.

Lia:

And there have been zero.

Lia:

New cities or towns or villages created for Palestinians.

Lia:

So wherever they lived until 1948, that's the territory they're allowed

Lia:

to live on today, even though now there's four generations later.

Lia:

So there's immense density in Palestinian towns and villages.

Lia:

There's immense underfunding in all sectors of society.

Lia:

And of course, political costs and political repression.

Lia:

For many years, if you wanted to be a high school teacher, or even an

Lia:

elementary school teacher, if you were a Palestinian, you had to go

Lia:

through many years of interrogation by the Israeli version of the FBI.

Lia:

So every kind of second class citizenship experience you can think of, we

Lia:

have dozens of laws that explicitly Discriminate against non Jews in

Lia:

Israel, because unlike other Western countries, Israel is not a democracy

Lia:

in the sense of one person, one vote.

Lia:

In Israel, Israel is an ethnocracy.

Lia:

In Israel, there's one class of citizenship for Jewish people, and a

Lia:

different class of citizenship for non Jewish people, and then a completely

Lia:

different class of citizenship for people who live there who are not citizens,

Lia:

like the residents of East Jerusalem.

Lia:

So in that reality, a law like the Nakba law, part of a whole slate of

Lia:

laws that have since passed in one version or another, that claws back

Lia:

any progress that has been made by democratic movements towards freedom of

Lia:

speech, it's had a devastating effect.

Lia:

And that in the film.

Lia:

The film starts with And it starts and ends on Independence Day, one year apart.

Lia:

And during that year, the law passes.

Lia:

And the level of vitriol that you can see in the Israeli public, in just that one

Lia:

year, the rise of that kind of aggressive street level nationalism, that, It was not

Lia:

really necessary until recently, because the state was doing all the, all of the

Lia:

expulsion and all of the xenophobia.

Lia:

And now we're seeing so much polarization, intense nationalism.

Lia:

And of course, also the rise of left movements and Palestinian civil society,

Lia:

continuing to demand its rights.

Lia:

And in the last, year and a half, we've seen the biggest protest

Lia:

movements in the country's history.

Lia:

And all of those things are a reaction.

Lia:

The Nakba law was this one point in this entire context, this whole arc

Lia:

of, the rise of fascistic movements and the rise of fascistic thinking under

Lia:

the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu.

Jovanni:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jovanni:

It sounds an awful lot like Jim Crow laws here in the United States and the South.

Jovanni:

I recall listening to a person you were interviewing in the movie, in the film,

Jovanni:

that was talking about the different legislations that prohibits interactions

Jovanni:

between Jews and Palestinians and whatnot, penalties that are involved with it.

Jovanni:

So yeah, it sounds, very, reminiscent to the South here in the United States.

Lia:

The anti miscegenation laws didn't pass, so a Palestinian and a Jew, or

Lia:

a Muslim and a Jew, or a Palestinian and Israeli can't have relationships.

Lia:

But, There's not many, obviously, the ones that are there under constant attack,

Lia:

because in Israel you cannot legally marry someone outside of your religion.

Lia:

So you have to go elsewhere, get married and come back.

Lia:

And then, that kind of two class, three class citizenship, life.

Lia:

Manifest itself in everything.

Lia:

Let's say one of you dies, your ability to inherit your partner's,

Lia:

pension, their land, whatever, it becomes incredibly complicated.

Lia:

everything is working against you, if you do decide to do that.

Lia:

And also, there was a very politicized and varied.

Lia:

Overcovered case of a man who picked up a woman in a bar, took her home.

Lia:

They had consensual decors, and only after she found out that he

Lia:

was Palestinian she went to the police and accused him of rape.

Lia:

And her claim was that if she had known that he wasn't Jewish, she

Lia:

would have never agreed to sex.

Lia:

and he was charged and it was very messy.

Lia:

And of course, if it was the other way around, the police

Lia:

would never even shown up.

Lia:

It penetrates into every level of official and unofficial life.

Lia:

during Jim Crow and after, racism in America, it enters every aspect

Lia:

of American life, at least that's how it looks from the outside.

Lia:

Even now, in the post Jim Crow era.

Jovanni:

Yes, absolutely.

Jovanni:

Yeah, the red lining and, housing and all that.

Jovanni:

Did you watch the film Islamization?

Jovanni:

We're talking about that.

Lia:

No,

Jovanni:

it was a, film that came out recently.

Jovanni:

It's called Zion Ionization.

Lia:

You mean Israelism?

Jovanni:

Israelism, yes.

Lia:

of course.

Jovanni:

No, we're talking about it.

Jovanni:

What do you think about

Lia:

the film?

Lia:

Yeah, it's

Jovanni:

Israelism.

Lia:

title.

Lia:

Israelism is a film, it's a documentary about, the, how Jewish kids grow

Lia:

up in America and how Israel is an integral part of their life.

Lia:

Jewish identity, it's drilled, Israel is drilled into them in the form of

Lia:

an idea, starting with kindergarten.

Lia:

And they are encouraged to go to Israel, they're encouraged

Lia:

to join the Israeli army.

Lia:

And in the film, you meet a couple of Jewish Americans

Lia:

and they talk about Israel.

Lia:

What it was, learning to color with the colors of the Israeli flag, learning

Lia:

to count with Hebrew, and just the way that Israel is drilled and drilled into

Lia:

every aspect of Jewish life in America.

Lia:

Obviously, I did not grow up in America.

Lia:

I grew up in Israel.

Lia:

As an Israeli watching this film, it was very creepy.

Lia:

We are very aware in Israel that, North American Jews use Israel as a kind of

Lia:

stand in for whatever their fears are.

Lia:

That Israel is a fantasy, for a lot of people.

Lia:

Israel is an idea for a lot of people.

Lia:

And it's not unique to Jewish North Americans, Palestinian North Americans,

Lia:

but also, average people don't imagine a country when they think about Israel.

Lia:

They don't think about people paying taxes and what the health care system

Lia:

is like and what the topography is like.

Lia:

They think about political ideas.

Lia:

The Jewish North Americans.

Lia:

they grow up, they cook their children in the soup of intense obsession and,

Lia:

it's really creepy when you watch it, when you're in Israeli because it's like

Lia:

you feel used, you feel like you're a woman stepping into one of those alpha

Lia:

male clubs where you're just like an idea of a person, you're not a real person.

Lia:

And, Israel is.

Lia:

Many things, but it's a country first and foremost.

Lia:

It's a difficult country to live in, even if you are Jewish, even if

Lia:

you are of European descent, which is not even the majority in Israel.

Lia:

Most Israelis did not come in those first Zionist waves of

Lia:

pioneers who had colonial ideas.

Lia:

The vast majority of Israelis came from, the Middle East, North

Lia:

Africa, Eastern Europe in the 90s when the Soviet Union collapsed.

Lia:

People who came out of economic or political necessity, and for us to

Lia:

look at Israelism, to look at the way and what Israelism documents and

Lia:

to look at the way that American and Canadian Jews have transformed us

Lia:

into a ideological tool in an arsenal.

Lia:

It's very creepy and I think that if North American Jews understood that they

Lia:

were being propagandized to aggressively.

Lia:

By this, machine that is now, generations of people who cook in these ideas, and

Lia:

propagate these ideas to their kids, and they, those kids grow up with those

Lia:

ideas, and they propagate them to their children, and it goes unquestioned

Lia:

now, this idea of support for Israel as a kind of, blanket statement.

Lia:

And it was, yeah, it was very creepy and very weird.

Lia:

It was like watching a cult.

Lia:

The insides of a cult.

Lia:

Every person, like, when I came to Toronto, I was invited to introduce the

Lia:

film and interview the director on stage.

Lia:

And I remember that every person that asked a question at that event started

Lia:

by saying, I'm a Canadian Jew, and I grew up like this too, most, almost all of

Lia:

the Jews I know who were born or raised here in North America grew up like that.

Lia:

But there's very few Jewish spaces that are critical of Israel, raise, raise

Lia:

children with, appreciation for Jewishness beyond Israel and the Holocaust.

Lia:

And they provide their children with the, knowledge that they should inherit.

Lia:

Jewishness is a 4, 000 year civilization.

Lia:

It's such a rich and tremendous civilization has made so many

Lia:

contributions to the world.

Lia:

And unfortunately, the way that most Jewish schools teach it is,

Lia:

Bible, Holocaust, Israel, ends.

Lia:

All of the richness of the hundreds of Jewish communities

Lia:

from all over the world is lost.

Lia:

Jewish experiences from around the world are lost, and centuries, millennia of

Lia:

Jewish history are replaced with this kind of mythology that is really sad.

Lia:

Obviously, the Holocaust is an enormous part of the Jewish

Lia:

experience, but I want children to learn about all of the inheritance.

Lia:

That we have received from our ancestors and from our elders, so

Lia:

that we can, understand the profundity of what it means to be Jewish.

Lia:

And instead, kids are drilled and drilled from kindergarten on Israel.

Lia:

And again, Israel is an idea, not Israel.

Lia:

The reality.

Lia:

Israel, the suburbs, Israel, the projects, Israel, the awful experience

Lia:

of having to raise children to send them to the army to go kill somebody else's

Lia:

children, Israel that is struggling with climate change, the disappearing

Lia:

of the Dead Sea, none of the reality of life in Israel, just this stand in

Lia:

idea with a flag and a Star of David.

Lia:

And I found it to be, very sickening and absolutely enraging.

Jovanni:

Yeah, I went to La Silla with my daughter.

Jovanni:

They had a film screening here in San Antonio.

Jovanni:

It was hosted by Jewish Voice for Peace, the chapter here in San Antonio.

Jovanni:

I remember my daughter, she holds, Her, she's very firm

Jovanni:

with her Puerto Rican identity.

Jovanni:

And I remember her commenting when she was watching the movie.

Jovanni:

I was like, that's really the way she perceived, the way shown and the

Jovanni:

way the joy and all the jubilation and all the hype and everything.

Jovanni:

She was like, yeah, that's very, it's very catching.

Jovanni:

It's very, growing up in that way is very, seductive, very seductive, to

Jovanni:

fall in line with the Zionist project, if you were to grow up that way,

Lia:

but in what way do you compare that to Puerto Rican identity?

Jovanni:

I'm her because

Jovanni:

She grew up here in the States, she grew up in the States and she has a vision,

Jovanni:

like most people in the diaspora, they have a vision of where they came from,

Jovanni:

or, a metastrophic way to come from.

Jovanni:

but we don't.

Jovanni:

there's obviously a lot, there's more Puerto Ricans here in the United

Jovanni:

States than there are in Puerto Rico.

Jovanni:

And we hold firms, we have a parade, we hold firms and everything, but it's not

Jovanni:

that drilling in that Puerto Rican ness.

Jovanni:

It's not drilled in into our children like that, that intense, like the film showed,

Lia:

when I was visiting you in Texas, and you were telling me about

Lia:

Puerto Rico and American colonialism.

Lia:

I remember asking you like, which indigenous nations are you descended from

Lia:

and you and your partner were telling me that the indigenous people of Puerto

Lia:

Rico were so decimated by colonialism, that they only live in your genes.

Lia:

Exactly.

Lia:

And that.

Lia:

comment, they're only alive in our genes.

Lia:

It stayed with me, it's now been 10 years.

Lia:

I think about it all the time.

Lia:

as a result of that violence, you didn't inherit the Millennia of, knowledge

Lia:

and culture and language that you are, by all rights entitled to as a

Lia:

person who comes from there that was robbed from you by colonial violence.

Lia:

And I think that one of the tragedies of Zionism, besides what it's imposing on

Lia:

Palestinians and on African refugees and, other communities is that it's robbing us.

Lia:

As Jewish people of the, wealth of inheritance that is our right

Lia:

to, because it is dominating what it means to be a Jew.

Lia:

It is speaking on behalf of Jewish people.

Lia:

It is forcing Jewish people into this, project, whether you believe in it or not.

Lia:

If you are a member of a synagogue, chances are your synagogue is heavily

Lia:

involved in supporting Israel.

Lia:

if your kids go to Hebrew school, because you want your kids to learn their

Lia:

history and you want them to learn their languages, chances are they're getting

Lia:

indoctrinated in Zionist propaganda.

Lia:

It's everywhere.

Lia:

And I feel that it is a disservice to our children that they are not given

Lia:

with confidence the right to make up their own minds and to learn their own

Lia:

histories, all of them, before, like you said, it just disappears into our genes.

Jovanni:

Yeah, I recall hearing the lady that was hosting the film after the film,

Jovanni:

we had a discussion, and one of the GVP members that was hosting, she said when

Jovanni:

she was growing up, she grew up in a non Zionist home, and her parents used

Jovanni:

to send her to the, synagogue schools and everything, just so they can learn

Jovanni:

things about, Judaism, so they can learn about the holidays, they can learn

Jovanni:

culture and stuff, and then when she get home and all that Zionist stuff, just

Jovanni:

leave that at the door, she was told.

Lia:

And she was lucky.

Jovanni:

But yeah,

Lia:

but

Jovanni:

do you sense a sea change here?

Jovanni:

Because the reason I'm asking is because, I went to the October 18 march in DC.

Jovanni:

There were, there were over 10, 000 people, marching on D.

Jovanni:

C.

Jovanni:

and about 300 plus people were arrested.

Jovanni:

The majority of the people that were arrested, were young Jewish

Jovanni:

Americans, that were arrested.

Jovanni:

And that march, and they were the one who organized the, the actual march,

Jovanni:

the JVP people with other allies, they organized the march, we, we're by the

Jovanni:

Capitol, they went into the rotunda, they did a sitting in the rotunda, the D.

Jovanni:

C.

Jovanni:

police went and just, just stormed them and just, pulled them out.

Jovanni:

Recently, going back to the, Netanyahu visit here.

Jovanni:

March 3, there was also a big, huge, protest outside DC that blocked

Jovanni:

streets, there were, people, chaining themselves, et cetera, right?

Jovanni:

And again, the people who organized these protests were young Jewish, American

Jovanni:

Jews, mostly members from the JVP.

Jovanni:

Chapters and whatnot.

Jovanni:

they did a call in and just people started flooding in, this area.

Jovanni:

Kamala Harris, the vice president presidential hopeful, tweeted the next

Jovanni:

day talking about that the protest is uncalled for, there's no place

Jovanni:

in America for anti Semitism, right?

Jovanni:

Referring to the protesters and stuff, right?

Lia:

This

Jovanni:

is what I'm

Lia:

saying Zionism doesn't just colonize Jewish history and Jewishness,

Lia:

and it's also colonizing anti Semitism

Jovanni:

to

Lia:

the point where, like, when real anti Semitism happens, we don't know

Lia:

what's actually going on because any criticism of the state of Israel and

Lia:

its government is shoved under this umbrella of anti Semitism, and It's

Lia:

incredibly dangerous because of course most people now, don't actually care and

Lia:

don't believe when anti Semitism happens.

Lia:

I remember when, there was, a very large high school in

Lia:

Toronto that got bombed threats.

Lia:

The weeks after October 7th.

Lia:

you can imagine how traumatizing it is to have a high school of

Lia:

children running for their lives thinking that they're about to die.

Lia:

You're an American, so you know all about that.

Lia:

But in Canada, we don't have these masks.

Lia:

So it was a very traumatic experience for people.

Lia:

And I remember talking to people about it and their eyes glazed over.

Lia:

They're like, oh, who cares?

Lia:

Palestinians go through much worse than this.

Lia:

And that kind of thinking, that kind of oppression Olympics, I

Lia:

think is what got us into this mess.

Lia:

the idea that because you suffer, therefore, it's okay to, do whatever to

Lia:

whoever, that because Palestinian people have suffered for generations, that it's

Lia:

okay to do an October 7th and kill more than a thousand civilians in that way.

Lia:

I think that is an incredibly destructive mentality.

Lia:

But I think that sea change that you're talking about with, masses

Lia:

of young Jews who are critical of Israel, taking to the streets.

Lia:

We've seen that since the 2014 war, and it's been a steady, increase,

Lia:

these movements have only grown exponentially as a result of Israel's

Lia:

actions, including in Israel.

Lia:

Standing Together is an organization that started right after the 2014 war,

Lia:

which was the worst war we've ever had.

Lia:

Until this one.

Lia:

this war caused them to balloon, and now there are thousands and tens of

Lia:

thousands of people who are, constantly protesting against the war, constantly

Lia:

demanding for a ceasefire, doing all kinds of creative nonviolent actions in

Lia:

Israel, and they have, dozens and dozens of support chapters all over the world.

Lia:

And we would never have seen a movement like that inside of Israel if, the

Lia:

government of Israel didn't act so belligerently and didn't, didn't

Lia:

operate out of a mentality of genocide.

Lia:

In Toronto, there's a number of anti Zionist, non Zionist organizations,

Lia:

Jewish organizations that have formed what's known as the Jew

Lia:

Say No to Genocide Coalition.

Lia:

And they work with Palestine Youth Movement and other Palestinian

Lia:

organizations that, and networks, to support each other and to, mobilize.

Lia:

In a way that we've never seen before.

Lia:

And yeah, it's very encouraging, to see people stand up for their ideals.

Lia:

I hope that, just like Zionism started as a liberation movement against

Lia:

European antisemitism, my hope is that this liberation movement will learn

Lia:

the lessons of the past and mobilize in a way that is actually inclusive

Lia:

and actually liberatory for everyone.

Jovanni:

Absolutely.

Jovanni:

one of the people on the panel, also said that there's this tendency amongst,

Jovanni:

people that are learning about the conflict, Irish people learning about

Jovanni:

the conflict, there's this tendency among them to pay more attention

Jovanni:

to what's happening in Palestine if it's coming from a Jewish person than

Jovanni:

if it's coming from a Palestinian.

Jovanni:

Person what she said is that, we need to listen to the, Palestinian voices,

Lia:

Sure.

Lia:

I agree.

Lia:

The way I see it is that it's a story that we've heard our entire lives.

Lia:

Everyone, grew up with Israel Palestine as a conflict.

Lia:

And their parents grew up with this conflict.

Lia:

And I think that the reason people pay attention to Jewish,

Lia:

activists is because it's new.

Lia:

It's a different thing.

Lia:

It's something that you don't expect.

Lia:

It's a person who's involved in the oppressor class that is

Lia:

standing up for the oppressed.

Lia:

When Jewish people were involved in the civil rights movement,

Lia:

nobody was listening to them.

Lia:

So I don't think that it's something unique to the fact that they're Jews.

Lia:

I think that it's just the fact that, they are saying not

Lia:

in my name, which is a thing.

Lia:

It's not a rare thing for Palestinians to say, stop killing us.

Lia:

But when someone who is implicated in the political violence that kills

Lia:

Palestinians says, stop killing people in my name, it's interesting.

Lia:

I think that's where that comes from.

Lia:

I do think it's the responsibility of critical Jews to use whatever

Lia:

platforms they have to Make sure Palestinians have a voice, because

Lia:

they don't usually have a platform.

Lia:

They're usually silenced.

Lia:

So if we do have platforms, use them in order to empower Palestinian voices.

Lia:

That's a no brainer.

Lia:

I really, think it's important to assign to, incompetence or curiosity, what

Lia:

we could cynically assign to malice.

Jovanni:

Yeah, we're, absolutely.

Jovanni:

I agree.

Jovanni:

Leo, we're coming up in time.

Jovanni:

I want to be respectful of your time.

Jovanni:

Please tell us about your book coming up.

Jovanni:

I know you and I were talking about your dissertation on it, and now you're

Jovanni:

converting to a book, you said, right?

Jovanni:

Tell us a little bit about that.

Lia:

Yeah, I'm not writing a book, but thank you for that encouragement.

Lia:

I actually wrote a film, but, yeah, I'm finishing up a dissertation.

Lia:

I wanted to look at how other kinds of media, because I've been working

Lia:

on documentaries my whole life.

Lia:

I wanted to look at how other kinds of media, whether they can be used for

Lia:

decolonization in Israel and Palestine.

Lia:

And specifically, I wanted to look at locative media.

Lia:

Media that you have to be somewhere specific to experience.

Lia:

So I picked augmented reality, which is a technology that uses the real, like any

Lia:

digital interaction with the real world, like Snapchat filters, for example, are

Lia:

augmented reality or the Pokemon game.

Lia:

So what we did with a group of Israeli activists, they said, Is

Lia:

we created a decolonial tour of, the Tel Aviv Beach prominent, which

Lia:

used to be a village called Mania.

Lia:

It's a Palestinian village that was raised to the ground.

Lia:

this giant beautiful park was built in its place.

Lia:

And what we did was through the use of augmented reality.

Lia:

When you take a photo of that place, the village comes up.

Lia:

I wanted to see whether actually seeing Palestinian spaces and

Lia:

places in the location where you're standing, whether that would do

Lia:

anything to your consciousness and to your awareness of just the level

Lia:

of colonial violence that exists,

Lia:

The inability to see oneself as part of a colonial project and the

Lia:

inability to see Palestinians as part of the history of this place.

Lia:

And that's what I wanted to question.

Lia:

That's what I wanted to undermine.

Lia:

So I'm just finishing up an academic dissertation about that.

Lia:

I've been trying different things as a media creator for the last 20 years to get

Lia:

Israelis to see, to hear, to understand.

Lia:

And once this is over, I'll try maybe something else.

Jovanni:

Absolutely.

Jovanni:

Leah, how do you see this conflict ending and what's your hope for the future?

Lia:

How do you see American racism ending?

Jovanni:

Touche, right?

Jovanni:

I think that's a good place to wrap up today.

Jovanni:

Leah, thank you so much for coming to the show today and sharing your time,

Jovanni:

your thoughts and experience with us.

Jovanni:

It was lovely having you here today.

Jovanni:

Please come again sometime, any last comments before we depart?

Lia:

Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you for having me.

Lia:

I think that you are totally right that Israel and Palestine is the

Lia:

civil rights issue of our time.

Lia:

Obviously, there's a lot of places where things are much worse than Gaza.

Lia:

There's a lot of places where Violence has gone on for a lot longer, and where,

Lia:

the systems of ideological violence have been a lot more destructive.

Lia:

But this is being done, literally in our names with our support, with our

Lia:

taxes, and it is being manipulated for our benefit, supposedly for our benefit.

Lia:

And I think that as a result of that We are all implicated in it, whether

Lia:

we're Jewish or not, Palestinian or not.

Lia:

Are, whether you like it or not, a part of this conflict.

Lia:

And I think that getting to justice in Israel and Palestine

Lia:

could have reverberations.

Lia:

Getting to peace in Israel and Palestine could have an inspiring

Lia:

reverberation all over the world.

Lia:

And that's my hope.

Lia:

And thank you for caring.

Lia:

Absolutely.

Jovanni:

Thank you.

Jovanni:

thank you guys for joining us.

Jovanni:

Please like us on social media.

Jovanni:

Share us with your friends.

Jovanni:

Help us grow.

Jovanni:

Leah, thank you again for coming.

Jovanni:

It was lovely having you.

Jovanni:

And we'll keep talking.

Jovanni:

Take care.

Lia:

Thank you so much.

Henri:

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About the Podcast

Fortress On A Hill (FOH) Podcast
Clearing away the BS around U.S. foreign policy, anti-imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war
The United States has become synonymous with empire and endless war, American troops sit in 70% of the world's countries, and yet, most Americans don't know that. The military is joined disproportionately by a 'warrior caste’ whom carry this enormous burden, making a less diverse force and ensuring most of society doesn't see their sacrifice. And American tax dollars, funding hundreds of billions in unnecessary spending on global hegemony, are robbed from the domestic needs of ordinary Americans. We aim to change that. Join Henri, Keagan, Jovanni, Shiloh, and Monisha, six leftist US military veterans, as they discuss how to turn the tide against endless war and repair the damage America has caused abroad.

About your host

Profile picture for Christopher Henrikson

Christopher Henrikson

Chris ‘Henri’ Henrikson is an Iraq war veteran from Portland, OR. He deployed in support of
Operation Noble Eagle at the Pentagon following 9/11 and served two tours in Iraq in
support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. A former MP team leader, Henri also served two years
as a CID drug investigator. Now a journalist, podcaster, writer, and anti-war activist, Henri
no longer supports the lies of imperialism or the PR spin of the politicians, wherever the
source. He seeks to make common cause with anyone tired of jingoistic-driven death
from the American war machine and a desire to protect the innocents of the earth, no
matter their origin. Except Alex Jones. Fuck that guy. Follow him on Twitter at
@henrihateswar. Email him at henri@fortressonahill.com.