From textbooks to handcuffs: Campus resistance for Gaza up close - Ep 156

Don: 00:00:20

This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan, Jo

Don: 00:00:23

vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha.

Jovanni: 00:00:28

Welcome everyone to Fortress on the Hill, a podcast about U.

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S.

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foreign policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of life.

Jovanni: 00:00:37

I'm Jovanni, here with Shiloh.

Jovanni: 00:00:39

Thank you for being with us today.

Jovanni: 00:00:41

How are you doing, Shiloh?

Shiloh: 00:00:42

I'm wonderful.

Shiloh: 00:00:44

I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Shiloh: 00:00:46

Yeah.

Jovanni: 00:00:47

Awesome.

Jovanni: 00:00:49

Shalom, the Israeli American Genocidal War against Palestinians, the Palestinian War

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of Liberation has been raging on for 268 days or nine months with no end in sight.

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Despite the unlimited amount of munition and political cover given to Israel by the

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United States and other Western countries, such as the UK, France and Germany, the

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Israeli occupation force is no closer to victory than they were on October

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8th against the various Palestinian factions leading the resistance.

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What they can achieve on the battlefield, they take it on as civilians, an

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unnecessary destruction of infrastructure.

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Despite being an unpopular venture in the United States, the Biden

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administration doesn't seem to budge to the demands of his party's

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constituents, demanding a ceasefire.

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Instead, the president doubles down.

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In the support of the State of Israel, billions of dollars continue

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to flow to fund this genocidal war.

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In the United States, students have decided not to take this with cross

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arms and instead have taken up the task to lead student protests at

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the level perhaps not seen since the Vietnam War, the Vietnam era.

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On April 17, 2024, students from Columbia University started a national movement

Jovanni: 00:02:06

by pitching tents and camping out on the school campuses, the school campus.

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This created a ripple effect where more than a hundred campuses Encampments

Jovanni: 00:02:18

were erected across the United States.

Jovanni: 00:02:19

They raised critical demands about ending war and genocide in Gaza, calling for

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universities to diverse from military and weapons manufacturing companies, financial

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transparency, and free expression.

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Here to tell us more, we have two guests.

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Rogue is a political artist and activist in the city of Detroit.

Jovanni: 00:02:40

They are affiliated with anarchists, Artists Collective based in Detroit

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that is focused on queer liberation.

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Roe was a participant in the WSU encampment as an autonomous person.

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And Levi, is a student at the University of Michigan, an Air

Jovanni: 00:03:00

Force veteran, and a Quaker.

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Levi is involved with the Divestment Coalition at the university,

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the T A H R I R Coalition, Levy was a participant at the U.

Jovanni: 00:03:14

M.

Jovanni: 00:03:14

encampment from April until the 21st of May.

Jovanni: 00:03:18

How are you guys doing?

Jovanni: 00:03:20

Welcome to the show.

Levi: 00:03:22

Doing well, thank you.

Levi: 00:03:24

Good to be here.

Jovanni: 00:03:25

Levy what is T A H R I R?

Jovanni: 00:03:29

What does that stand for?

Levi: 00:03:31

Yeah it's, it stands for I forget what all the letters stand for, but Tahir

Levi: 00:03:38

in Arabic means liberation, and each of the letters, are in the vein of that and,

Levi: 00:03:45

what the Divestment Coalition stands for.

Jovanni: 00:03:48

Okay, Tahir.

Jovanni: 00:03:49

Awesome.

Jovanni: 00:03:50

Awesome.

Jovanni: 00:03:51

Welcome to the Show.

Jovanni: 00:03:53

let's start with Levi.

Jovanni: 00:03:54

Levi you and your cohort set up an encampment in late April that ran

Jovanni: 00:03:59

for 30 days until the 21st of May.

Jovanni: 00:04:03

You guys were raided at the university by state police in

Jovanni: 00:04:06

the middle of worship service.

Jovanni: 00:04:07

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Levi: 00:04:09

Absolutely.

Levi: 00:04:11

We had actually, had some talk about an encampment before Columbia started theirs

Levi: 00:04:18

just because there's been encampments in past protest movements particularly

Levi: 00:04:24

at the University of Michigan.

Levi: 00:04:26

In the movement against apartheid in South Africa shantytowns

Levi: 00:04:31

were set up to show people what.

Levi: 00:04:33

People were living through in South Africa, and they were left up for, I

Levi: 00:04:39

think, months, maybe over a year or two on it, like it was a very long term protest,

Levi: 00:04:44

and so that was something that we had in mind, there'd been talks about it, but

Levi: 00:04:50

when Columbia did theirs and National SJP.

Levi: 00:04:55

We put out the call to say, hey, anybody who has the capacity to do

Levi: 00:04:58

this, see if you can put this together.

Levi: 00:05:01

We took that seriously and ran with it.

Levi: 00:05:06

When we started to be honest with you, I thought that police would clear us, within

Levi: 00:05:12

hours, within days, that kind of thing.

Levi: 00:05:15

I had no idea that the political systems in the region would really

Levi: 00:05:21

let us stay out there that long.

Levi: 00:05:22

They really.

Levi: 00:05:24

resisted clearing us.

Levi: 00:05:26

I think that they they didn't want to look like all these other schools.

Levi: 00:05:30

The University of Michigan is like in Ann Arbor, which is a very liberal town, and

Levi: 00:05:34

they had a lot of different motivations.

Levi: 00:05:37

City Council was keeping Ann Arbor Police Department from getting involved,

Levi: 00:05:41

and so that helped us out as well, because when it finally came down to it,

Levi: 00:05:46

Police Department, like the University Police Department, but

Levi: 00:05:49

also Michigan State Police to do the clearing of the encampment

Levi: 00:05:52

without Ann Arbor Police Department.

Levi: 00:05:55

There's a lot going on, a lot of reasons that they didn't clear us for so long,

Levi: 00:05:59

but I was really glad that we were able to make it 30 days and keep it

Levi: 00:06:04

there and keep this community thriving.

Levi: 00:06:06

We couldn't have done it without so many people from the community supporting us.

Levi: 00:06:12

Supporting us financially, supporting us with their labor and time and

Levi: 00:06:15

people coming in and just being in the space to keep it safe.

Levi: 00:06:19

And it was one of the coolest things I've been a part of in my life,

Levi: 00:06:23

like just to be there and be with other people and be in an interfaith

Levi: 00:06:29

community, a community with people of all different kinds of backgrounds.

Levi: 00:06:34

A learning community we were having teach ins on the Diag right next to where teach

Levi: 00:06:38

ins were founded in the United States.

Levi: 00:06:41

It was, a really cool experience.

Jovanni: 00:06:44

How was the the administration taking this?

Jovanni: 00:06:47

Because I know that we saw the in Columbus, for example,

Jovanni: 00:06:50

the administration in Columbus University, they were like leading

Jovanni: 00:06:54

the whole crackdown on the students.

Jovanni: 00:06:56

How was the administration over there taking it?

Levi: 00:06:59

Very poorly, they've responded to us, essentially mocking us at every turn.

Levi: 00:07:04

The president of our university has stated repeatedly that he loves Israel.

Levi: 00:07:11

He, supports them unconditionally.

Levi: 00:07:13

He has been to Israel.

Levi: 00:07:16

He knows exactly what's going on and he knows exactly what they're

Levi: 00:07:18

doing and he supports it fully.

Levi: 00:07:20

And I, meet students every day that have no idea that this guy's been to

Levi: 00:07:23

Israel and completely supports it.

Levi: 00:07:25

And then our regents, we have eight regents and they control the endowment.

Levi: 00:07:30

So they've been who we've targeted with our messages and our campaign to say, Hey,

Levi: 00:07:35

these people hold the keys to divestment.

Levi: 00:07:39

So we have to get at them to get them to take us seriously.

Levi: 00:07:43

And That's been impossible.

Levi: 00:07:47

Even the democratic so called progressive regents, they mock us and

Levi: 00:07:53

delegitimize us and state very clearly that they will not listen to us.

Levi: 00:07:58

They will not divest.

Levi: 00:08:00

They say that they will shield the endowment from political pressures,

Levi: 00:08:04

which is silly because the university divested from South Africa, from tobacco.

Levi: 00:08:10

They are on a plan to divest from fossil fuels.

Levi: 00:08:14

Which obviously they should just do immediately.

Levi: 00:08:17

And then they even divested from Russia the moment that war broke out there.

Levi: 00:08:22

So they clearly, it clearly is a political thing.

Levi: 00:08:26

And we know as leftists, money is inherently political.

Levi: 00:08:30

This whole thing is political.

Levi: 00:08:32

And so to say that you'll shield a financial endowment that's invested in

Levi: 00:08:36

real things that affect real people, to say that you'll shield that from

Levi: 00:08:40

political, Political pressure is like saying that you'll shield a political

Levi: 00:08:47

thing from political pressure.

Levi: 00:08:48

It's just a silly thing to say.

Shiloh: 00:08:51

Yeah, I'm curious what a lot of the, Universities

Shiloh: 00:08:57

had very specific demands.

Shiloh: 00:08:59

Did you all, did UMIC follow the demands of, any other universities?

Shiloh: 00:09:06

Did you have special ones, specific to UMIC or, yeah,

Shiloh: 00:09:11

that's for either Roque or, Levi?

Levi: 00:09:15

Sure.

Levi: 00:09:16

I know that our demands, we tried to keep them pretty simple.

Levi: 00:09:21

We just had four.

Levi: 00:09:22

Divest from Israeli apartheid and genocide.

Levi: 00:09:25

Establish a people's audit.

Levi: 00:09:27

So a committee that would be positioned to be able to have control

Levi: 00:09:33

or, at least to make statements and have some kind of advisory.

Levi: 00:09:36

role were in regards to the endowment, because it's such a large sum of money.

Levi: 00:09:41

And then boycott Israeli academic institutions was our third demand.

Levi: 00:09:46

And then abolish campus policing, which went in line with older demands

Levi: 00:09:52

and the fact that DPSS, which is our, our, the security wing at the

Levi: 00:09:59

university, has incredibly racist, evil origins, and so that was important to

Levi: 00:10:05

us to include in our list of demands.

Rogue: 00:10:08

Wayne State had very similar demands.

Rogue: 00:10:11

One thing that the SJP at Wayne State was really demanding that, became a

Rogue: 00:10:16

game at point, at some points, was they were demanding a meeting with

Rogue: 00:10:19

President Espy, due to President Espy continuously sending out, An

Rogue: 00:10:24

email pretty much every day that she.

Rogue: 00:10:27

That she had Vice President Lindsay come by and talk to the encampment

Rogue: 00:10:31

an edited video would get sent out along with a 9 paragraph email about

Rogue: 00:10:36

why what we were doing was wrong.

Rogue: 00:10:38

And then there would be false promises made of we'll meet with you then, and

Rogue: 00:10:42

then it suddenly wouldn't materialize, or they would suddenly find the ability

Rogue: 00:10:47

to hold a very impromptu meeting without giving any of the SJP members

Rogue: 00:10:51

a chance to really organize for it.

Rogue: 00:10:55

That was a continuous use.

Rogue: 00:10:57

the administration.

Rogue: 00:10:58

That and the fire marshal, they really wanted an excuse.

Rogue: 00:11:03

They found they tried to make at you, Mitch, which was a continuous back

Rogue: 00:11:08

and forth with myself and the fire marshal a lot of times, because I

Rogue: 00:11:10

was the one walking him through and having an argument with him, then on

Rogue: 00:11:14

camera about it and correcting them.

Jovanni: 00:11:17

Ro, you say that on, tell me that on May 30, the the university

Jovanni: 00:11:24

police launched a raid against your camp early in the morning.

Rogue: 00:11:28

Yeah, so they got a 5 like 30 ish raid time on us.

Rogue: 00:11:36

We had thought there was going to be a raid the evening before.

Rogue: 00:11:40

We stuck, I stuck around out there for a little while and then I went

Rogue: 00:11:42

ended up going home that evening.

Rogue: 00:11:44

And I got a call from some of my friends who were out there that at around 530

Rogue: 00:11:48

they had shown up and made a raid.

Rogue: 00:11:50

In issuance of a clearance demand on us.

Rogue: 00:11:54

And then shortly after the clearance demand was made by Wayne State Police.

Rogue: 00:11:59

They began the process of breaking through our barricades, and they

Rogue: 00:12:03

went through a really targeted.

Rogue: 00:12:06

Arrest system, they ignored a lot of campers and they went for anyone that they

Rogue: 00:12:10

really felt was in any sort of leadership.

Rogue: 00:12:14

They got our kitchen guy.

Rogue: 00:12:16

He was one of the first people they snagged as soon as they walked in.

Rogue: 00:12:20

They got a friend of mine that was really active and setting up

Rogue: 00:12:23

the camp and everything else along with almost all the SJP leaders.

Jovanni: 00:12:27

You said also they, they targeted, specifically, women,

Jovanni: 00:12:34

Muslim women hijabi Women's.

Rogue: 00:12:36

Yeah.

Rogue: 00:12:38

So several of us attempted to march back to the camp.

Rogue: 00:12:42

And when that occurred, they, they got a little bit of around behind the group

Rogue: 00:12:48

and broke into the group forcefully.

Rogue: 00:12:51

There was, like, an attempt by one of the officers to grab me, and then he

Rogue: 00:12:54

lost interest in me and immediately went to an SJP member who they ended

Rogue: 00:12:58

up removing her hijab, while she was on the ground along with her mother,

Rogue: 00:13:03

and I believe her aunt also had their hijabs removed in broad public.

Shiloh: 00:13:08

Just the vileness never ceases to amaze me.

Rogue: 00:13:12

Yeah, Quincy State still hasn't acknowledged it.

Rogue: 00:13:15

They haven't called for, they haven't publicly called for an investigation

Rogue: 00:13:18

into the removal of the Chobbs.

Rogue: 00:13:21

They haven't talked about it all.

Rogue: 00:13:23

I think the only thing they've said is we'll review the body cam footage.

Jovanni: 00:13:27

Tell us a little bit how your in your school, how

Jovanni: 00:13:32

was this encampment Started?

Jovanni: 00:13:35

how you guys launched it and what was the reaction of the administration?

Rogue: 00:13:40

Our chapter out here launched it.

Rogue: 00:13:41

They called me in day of to come play Street Medic for them and the help out

Rogue: 00:13:47

there and They did it really beautifully.

Rogue: 00:13:50

They had a really big distraction that occurred with a circular march, and

Rogue: 00:13:56

then they just started dropping tents while that was going on and it took

Rogue: 00:14:00

the cops a little bit of time, really, to respond to us several members got

Rogue: 00:14:06

out there, they got fencing really quickly, they grabbed pretty much they

Rogue: 00:14:10

If it wasn't nailed down in the first 12 hours, it was getting dragged to our

Rogue: 00:14:13

walls, which then became the thing for a lot of us that were there to help out

Rogue: 00:14:19

was building up those walls and just making it more difficult to take it.

Rogue: 00:14:23

And the cops had a really hard time dealing with us initially.

Rogue: 00:14:29

We had a motorcycle cop that the first night circled around the encampment the

Rogue: 00:14:33

entire evening and revving his engine like every time he came up by tents.

Rogue: 00:14:40

They brought out a tactical vehicle within like the first Three minutes

Rogue: 00:14:45

of us being out there, as soon as the sun started coming down, there

Rogue: 00:14:49

was a tactical vehicle coming up to just park and watch the encampment.

Rogue: 00:14:54

And that was there for several days.

Rogue: 00:14:57

Several members got together to start the process of trying to block their

Rogue: 00:15:01

view and deny them visibility and access to the camp at that point.

Shiloh: 00:15:05

I'm curious if any of the demands y'all both listed the very

Shiloh: 00:15:11

simple, direct, clear demands, or any of those, demands reached, were any of them

Rogue: 00:15:19

Not a single Wayne State demands have been met to date.

Rogue: 00:15:23

We got admonished by our Board of Governors member, Brian Barnhill at the

Rogue: 00:15:29

last Board of Governors meeting, telling us to use critical thinking to see that

Rogue: 00:15:33

divestment wouldn't change anything.

Rogue: 00:15:36

And that was rather interesting.

Rogue: 00:15:37

3 minutes steal from him.

Rogue: 00:15:40

And who was this again?

Rogue: 00:15:42

It was governor, it was board of governors member, Brian Barnhill, at the very

Rogue: 00:15:47

end of the meeting at the last board of governors meeting, which we were

Rogue: 00:15:50

supposed to be able to have dialogue.

Rogue: 00:15:51

Actually, they had promised us.

Rogue: 00:15:54

During the encampment that there was going to be an opportunity for dialogue

Rogue: 00:15:57

with the Board of Governors regarding divestment during public comment, and

Rogue: 00:16:01

then they move public comment to the end.

Rogue: 00:16:03

After they went to go close it, he objected to it so that he could

Rogue: 00:16:07

say a 3 minute piece essentially just talking very paternally to the

Rogue: 00:16:15

student body that was requesting divestment, at one point telling

Rogue: 00:16:19

us to use critical thinking skills.

Rogue: 00:16:21

And it was just a very interesting tirade from him.

Jovanni: 00:16:25

So, what were you supposed to do with critical thinking?

Rogue: 00:16:28

To me is that I think we're just going to start trying to look for people.

Rogue: 00:16:32

That was my takeaway from the, from his tirade, honestly.

Rogue: 00:16:36

Wow.

Shiloh: 00:16:37

And how about you, Levi were any of the demands reached or were there

Shiloh: 00:16:43

any discussions started around them?

Shiloh: 00:16:45

Do you think there's been any sort of dialogue between the administration?

Shiloh: 00:16:48

Not

Levi: 00:16:49

at All.

Levi: 00:16:50

yeah we've been at it for quite a while at the University of Michigan.

Levi: 00:16:55

There's been a SGP chapter here for many years.

Levi: 00:17:00

And then since October, SGP and Jewish Voice for Peace have been at the forefront

Levi: 00:17:06

of the Divestment Coalition, getting more organizations involved in that.

Levi: 00:17:12

So it's been a big effort, our university was one of those that had

Levi: 00:17:19

a whole lot going on for divestment long before the encampment started.

Levi: 00:17:24

And so they were poised very clearly to just say no, yet again, no.

Levi: 00:17:30

And I think that points to the fact that we, have to make it impossible for them.

Levi: 00:17:36

We have to make it uncomfortable for them, right?

Levi: 00:17:39

Nobody convinced the Dutch.

Levi: 00:17:41

That what they were doing in South Africa was morally reprehensible and

Levi: 00:17:44

that they should stop because of that.

Levi: 00:17:46

They made it politically and economically uncomfortable for them

Levi: 00:17:50

until they just couldn't keep doing it.

Levi: 00:17:52

And if we really believe that what these people are doing is wrong,

Levi: 00:17:56

if we really believe that they're aiding in genocide, then it makes

Levi: 00:17:59

absolutely, it makes a lot of sense to just make their lives incredibly

Levi: 00:18:03

uncomfortable until they divest.

Rogue: 00:18:07

Yeah, I have to say Levi hit it on the nail on the head.

Rogue: 00:18:10

It just has to be completely uncomfortable for these regents and

Rogue: 00:18:13

these board of governors members to conduct business as usual.

Rogue: 00:18:17

And that's really going to be key on college campuses to divestment.

Rogue: 00:18:23

I think that the more we see student activism making it harder for them to

Rogue: 00:18:27

conduct business as usual, the more successful it's going to be long term.

Jovanni: 00:18:31

What do you, what do you, these national protests that's going On?

Jovanni: 00:18:39

what do you see a chink in the armor?

Jovanni: 00:18:43

Do you see anything shifting with these with these protests

Jovanni: 00:18:48

happening around the country?

Levi: 00:18:51

Absolutely.

Levi: 00:18:53

I really do.

Levi: 00:18:53

And I see it happening in many ways.

Levi: 00:18:55

I think that, of course, they're on college campuses.

Levi: 00:18:59

A lot of the impact that you're going to see is in the younger generation, but

Levi: 00:19:03

you're seeing that even in young people who are not involved, that have maybe

Levi: 00:19:07

stopped by the encampment once or twice, they, without question, understand that

Levi: 00:19:13

what Israel is doing is wrong, and they understand a whole lot more about Zionism

Levi: 00:19:18

than past generations of Americans did.

Levi: 00:19:20

So that's powerful.

Levi: 00:19:22

It's particularly powerful when we're talking about Young Jewish people and

Levi: 00:19:26

Jewish students at these universities that are leading the protests, getting

Levi: 00:19:31

involved in them, learning more, we're talking some people that were raised by

Levi: 00:19:37

Zionist parents, many people involved that were raised by anti Zionist

Levi: 00:19:41

parents, and some people involved That were really on the fence before and I

Levi: 00:19:46

think that's where a lot of the, I think that terrifies the conservative Jewish

Levi: 00:19:51

establishment and it terrifies the, these Zionist universities because they

Levi: 00:19:57

see that you've got A bunch of Jewish students involved in the protests, and

Levi: 00:20:03

then maybe just a few counter protesting and of course not all of the people that

Levi: 00:20:09

disagree with us and are Jewish are going to show up with an Israeli flag, but

Levi: 00:20:15

plenty do, and it just goes to show that the people that feel really passionately

Levi: 00:20:19

about them, about this issue, There's a very strong group that is on the side

Levi: 00:20:25

for Palestine, and so that really tells you something about why they have put so

Levi: 00:20:30

much money into universities because it is really about controlling the message.

Levi: 00:20:35

Israel has lasted this long by convincing people that it is a

Levi: 00:20:39

progressive ethnic cleansing, that it's progressive apartheid, that

Levi: 00:20:43

it's a progressive ethnostate.

Levi: 00:20:45

And the only way that we'll demolish it is by showing people what a lie that is,

Levi: 00:20:50

and particularly considering the impact of the Jewish left on this world that's

Levi: 00:20:55

particularly important in the Jewish community, and that's something that

Levi: 00:20:58

we're seeing at these college campuses.

Jovanni: 00:21:01

What's your take on it, Ro?

Rogue: 00:21:03

We had Wayne State doesn't have the strongest JVP voice out there, but

Rogue: 00:21:10

we did get a lot of support from New Mitch's JVP who had members regularly

Rogue: 00:21:16

coming out to help support and help fight.

Rogue: 00:21:18

And then we also had the Detroit Jewish for Peace, that

Rogue: 00:21:21

was out there engaging people.

Rogue: 00:21:24

pretty much daily hitting the university as much as they could

Rogue: 00:21:29

with the demands of the encampment.

Rogue: 00:21:33

I do think that it is shifting things.

Rogue: 00:21:35

We didn't have nearly as many counter protesters as I expected because Hillel

Rogue: 00:21:39

has a rather large presence on our campus.

Rogue: 00:21:43

They control half of the 6th floor of the Student Center.

Rogue: 00:21:46

And they have a pretty impressive budget, but they didn't really show up.

Rogue: 00:21:49

We had one, one counter prostitutor who showed up the very first day

Rogue: 00:21:54

for prayer to stand around and act intimidating, and he wandered off after

Rogue: 00:21:58

about 20 minutes of a staring Contest.

Rogue: 00:22:01

but I do agree Levi's correct.

Rogue: 00:22:03

I think that the coalition is stronger than it's ever been.

Rogue: 00:22:06

It's growing.

Rogue: 00:22:07

Wayne State's coalition is growing rapidly.

Rogue: 00:22:11

Particularly around the Detroit metro area.

Rogue: 00:22:12

We're seeing more groups sign on, and joining up and fighting back against it.

Shiloh: 00:22:19

And just in the discussion around like coalitions and really,

Shiloh: 00:22:24

diverse group of peoples, like coming together, like what each of you what

Shiloh: 00:22:29

were some of, what some of the beauty that you witnessed and were a part

Shiloh: 00:22:34

of, in this solidarity encampments.

Shiloh: 00:22:38

And then on the counter, like what was some of the pain that you also

Shiloh: 00:22:43

witnessed amongst all the just.

Rogue: 00:22:46

I'll start.

Rogue: 00:22:46

One thing that really happened at Wayne State's encampment is that our

Rogue: 00:22:50

student body had previously been not quite connected particularly between

Rogue: 00:22:57

our queer student body and SJP.

Rogue: 00:23:00

We just hadn't really, we supported them, we just never really engaged

Rogue: 00:23:03

with them directly very often.

Rogue: 00:23:06

The encampment definitely changed that and it definitely forged a much stronger

Rogue: 00:23:10

student coalition on Wayne State's campus as we dealt with the university and

Rogue: 00:23:15

its lash back, along with it attempting to pink wash during our encampment.

Rogue: 00:23:21

They tried to open a show and then ended up having to cancel it due

Rogue: 00:23:24

to the encampment, which was nice.

Rogue: 00:23:26

And that was a queer that was a Mighty Real Queer Detroit show that

Rogue: 00:23:30

they attempted to open at the E.

Rogue: 00:23:31

Wayne Jacobs which my activist group my collective called for

Rogue: 00:23:36

a boycott, and it was joined by several campus, And then it ended up

Rogue: 00:23:40

getting canceled and shoved around.

Rogue: 00:23:42

I think it had a very weak opening overall, which is nice.

Rogue: 00:23:45

But yeah, we're seeing much stronger student coalitions come out of it.

Jovanni: 00:23:49

Yeah, that's good.

Jovanni: 00:23:51

Yeah, there is.

Jovanni: 00:23:51

And we've seen the, we've seen that it's working.

Jovanni: 00:23:53

We've seen that it's working.

Jovanni: 00:23:55

What's happening across the nation because the.

Jovanni: 00:24:00

The the images, are, the images coming from Palestine is reaching everyone.

Jovanni: 00:24:06

It's anyone with anyone with a computer, anyone with an iPhone, anyone with,

Jovanni: 00:24:11

with, social media can see the images.

Jovanni: 00:24:15

This is this is the first, genocide in history happening in real

Jovanni: 00:24:20

time where everybody's knowing, everybody can see what is happening.

Jovanni: 00:24:24

And not only, this is effect, not only this is.

Jovanni: 00:24:29

Obviously affecting negatively the the Palestinian people,

Jovanni: 00:24:33

but it's also affecting Israel.

Jovanni: 00:24:34

Israel like, you said, Levi that, before the narrative that Israel had

Jovanni: 00:24:42

to, keep her up, to prop her up is falling apart like a house of cards.

Jovanni: 00:24:47

But not only that is happening, but also the United States is falling apart.

Jovanni: 00:24:51

The narrative of, the United States of this, force for good, this, democracy

Jovanni: 00:24:59

promotion stepping in, whatever narrative that it uses to justify any

Jovanni: 00:25:04

type of action around the world is also falling apart too, because now the

Jovanni: 00:25:08

world is seeing that the hypocrisy of U.

Jovanni: 00:25:11

S.

Jovanni: 00:25:11

foreign policy.

Jovanni: 00:25:13

For one X state, you want to bring the hammer down we're not going to tolerate

Jovanni: 00:25:20

this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, for X state, but for Israel, it does,

Jovanni: 00:25:26

it just bends over backwards to, cover, to provide cover, political shielding,

Jovanni: 00:25:33

Of any criticism, not only that, it attacks anyone who attacks Israel.

Jovanni: 00:25:37

For example, where the ICJ, the ICJ, brought charges on Israel

Jovanni: 00:25:44

for genocide, et cetera, right?

Jovanni: 00:25:46

The United States responded with sanctions, on the judges, you've seen

Jovanni: 00:25:51

here in Texas, for example, they passed a legislation where pretty much criticizing

Jovanni: 00:25:58

Israel is akin to anti Semitism.

Jovanni: 00:26:01

The governor here any institution, any public institution that permits that that

Jovanni: 00:26:08

permits criticism of Israel pretty much is open to, for sanction by the state.

Jovanni: 00:26:13

So we've seen the reaction.

Jovanni: 00:26:15

That's happening.

Jovanni: 00:26:17

This dystopian, draconian reaction is happening to shield

Jovanni: 00:26:21

this, one particular state.

Jovanni: 00:26:23

A state, very small state, probably the size of New Jersey which is small

Jovanni: 00:26:28

population which blows the mind for anyone, but yeah, I'm interested

Jovanni: 00:26:33

to hear your thoughts on that.

Levi: 00:26:35

Yeah I, it is particularly unsettling to see, this, Anti Zionism

Levi: 00:26:42

equals anti Semitism kind of scenario be codified across the country, and it is,

Levi: 00:26:50

it's worth thinking about that these are states that have leaders that didn't say

Levi: 00:26:57

a thing about the anti Semitism on the far in Charlottesville or any other place,

Levi: 00:27:03

like they, it's clearly not a really big concern for them, but criticizing Israel

Levi: 00:27:10

And they've been given the go ahead by conservative Jewish organizations like

Levi: 00:27:15

the ADL to define anti Zionism as anti Semitism, which for them means defining

Levi: 00:27:24

anti imperialism as anti Semitism.

Levi: 00:27:27

And so it's a huge issue that we needed to stand against as a free speech issue.

Levi: 00:27:33

And as Israel continue, continuing to be a bully to the Jews.

Levi: 00:27:39

The United States and its citizens through its lobby in the United States,

Levi: 00:27:44

and so that's it's, ridiculous, but on the heartening side, the more that Jewish

Levi: 00:27:54

people come out in support of Palestine and the more that people discuss this,

Levi: 00:28:00

the more that there's, the more clear it is that our leaders are Jewish.

Levi: 00:28:05

only care about having the back of imperialism, about like

Levi: 00:28:09

propping up imperialism and United States imperialism wherever it

Jovanni: 00:28:12

Is.

Levi: 00:28:14

the more that distinction between Zionism and Judaism is made clear

Levi: 00:28:22

by Jewish people and by people doing their research, the more that helps

Levi: 00:28:27

people to see that this isn't a Jewish issue, this is an imperialism issue.

Levi: 00:28:31

And I think that's huge because many progressives are rightly concerned

Levi: 00:28:36

about anti Semitism and I know for me personally, before February,

Levi: 00:28:43

I had a block in my mind where I would think about Palestine and I

Levi: 00:28:45

would just resist it so strongly.

Levi: 00:28:48

I would see news articles about it and I wouldn't click and I just,

Levi: 00:28:51

I really tried to stay out of it.

Levi: 00:28:53

And so now I'm trying to talk to friends that I know that I feel are

Levi: 00:28:57

in a similar situation of just wanting to stay out of it because they're

Levi: 00:29:00

Concerned about getting into something like that, that they believe this idea,

Levi: 00:29:06

oh, it's just too complicated for me.

Levi: 00:29:07

And I think it's totally, fair when other people have a lot of blame and

Levi: 00:29:14

and, feel frustrated with those people.

Levi: 00:29:17

But I feel like I don't, I'm not entitled to that because I was there.

Levi: 00:29:20

And so I try to approach those people with understanding and say, here's

Levi: 00:29:24

what helped me get involved and try to help them get involved too.

Shiloh: 00:29:28

And I guess along those lines, Rogue, what would you say, we're

Shiloh: 00:29:33

all veterans here and antiwar, anti imperialist veterans, and what would

Shiloh: 00:29:39

you say to a veteran who's on the fence right now about speaking up or,

Rogue: 00:29:47

Actually I would tell any veteran that's on the fence about

Rogue: 00:29:51

it that they really need to sit down and reflect on the oaths they swore

Rogue: 00:29:56

and what those things really mean.

Rogue: 00:29:59

At the end of the day for us as human beings, our community is here.

Rogue: 00:30:05

Yes, and speak to the active duty as well here.

Rogue: 00:30:08

We all swore an oath to take care of ourselves here.

Rogue: 00:30:11

We all swore an oath to take care of our fellow man in this country to face

Rogue: 00:30:15

all those enemies, foreign and domestic.

Rogue: 00:30:16

And when we look at what imperialism and what American imperialism is

Rogue: 00:30:20

doing just here in the United States, I'm maybe, what, 45 minutes away

Rogue: 00:30:27

from Southfield right now, Levi?

Rogue: 00:30:29

Yeah.

Rogue: 00:30:30

Which with Novi makes the weapons manufacturing corridor of Michigan and

Rogue: 00:30:35

any type of weapon that you can think of is out here, and it's giant money.

Rogue: 00:30:42

As veterans, we have to get in the streets.

Rogue: 00:30:44

We have to get in the streets.

Rogue: 00:30:45

We have to stand at the forefront of this.

Rogue: 00:30:48

And really argue that this is not in our interest.

Rogue: 00:30:51

This is not in our national interest.

Rogue: 00:30:52

If you're a statist, obviously, if you're an anarchist, you're about

Rogue: 00:30:56

liberation of all, so you definitely should be out there anyways.

Rogue: 00:31:00

But, that's really where this comes down to is that we've all sworn an oath.

Rogue: 00:31:05

And we can see that American imperialism is not working.

Rogue: 00:31:09

It hasn't been working except for a very select elite few.

Rogue: 00:31:14

And we're seeing the issues from Israel and how it goes about in its policing

Rogue: 00:31:22

coming back into our streets today.

Rogue: 00:31:25

Tying it into Wayne State's encampment.

Rogue: 00:31:27

Our police chief, Holt, is Israeli trained.

Rogue: 00:31:31

He went over there.

Rogue: 00:31:32

A couple years ago, I went through all that training and we're seeing

Rogue: 00:31:35

those things come back and be used against student protesters.

Rogue: 00:31:39

Now we're seeing militarized tactics and militarized gear being

Rogue: 00:31:43

intentionally used against us.

Rogue: 00:31:44

And as veterans, we have to stand up and say, nah, that's not okay.

Rogue: 00:31:49

That's not how this is going to go.

Rogue: 00:31:50

And you're not going to run a tactical vehicle on college campuses.

Rogue: 00:31:55

Because it's just fucking wrong.

Rogue: 00:31:58

You don't need to be out there with your baton and your nightstick and everything

Rogue: 00:32:02

else trying to intimidate your student body because it's just fucking wrong.

Rogue: 00:32:07

And active duty has to stand up and look at that as well and decide

Rogue: 00:32:10

if this is really what they want to be defending whether they want

Rogue: 00:32:15

to be defending the people at home who aren't imperialists here.

Rogue: 00:32:20

So that's where I stand at on that.

Jovanni: 00:32:24

Absolutely.

Shiloh: 00:32:25

Did you have a question, Jovanni?

Shiloh: 00:32:27

I was gonna.

Shiloh: 00:32:28

No

Jovanni: 00:32:28

Go ahead,

Shiloh: 00:32:29

Okay.

Shiloh: 00:32:30

So I have one, I have two last questions, one for each of

Shiloh: 00:32:35

you, and then one for Levi.

Shiloh: 00:32:37

so the, yes, I spent a while since I've been in college, like a long while, but

Shiloh: 00:32:43

I assume y'all are on summer break now.

Shiloh: 00:32:46

And I think that the administrations were hoping that things would

Shiloh: 00:32:52

fizzle out over summer breaks.

Shiloh: 00:32:55

The, and, I'm curious, not to divulge information or whatever, but what's the

Shiloh: 00:33:02

plan for when the fall semester starts?

Shiloh: 00:33:05

Do you, what do you picture happening?

Shiloh: 00:33:07

Do you think that the student encampments are, going to spring back up?

Shiloh: 00:33:14

Do you, yeah, what what do you hope will happen and what do you think is

Shiloh: 00:33:20

realistic around what might happen?

Rogue: 00:33:22

I think that what we're probably going to see is we're going to see a lot.

Rogue: 00:33:28

We're seeing some of that happen at Wayne State now.

Rogue: 00:33:30

We're going to see a lot of hit and run graffiti campaigning, that's going

Rogue: 00:33:34

to be drawing a lot of attention.

Rogue: 00:33:35

That image is going to live on social media for a little while.

Rogue: 00:33:39

The W at Wayne State just had red splatter all over it.

Rogue: 00:33:44

And then they got the video of them cleaning it off too.

Rogue: 00:33:47

There's.

Rogue: 00:33:48

Yeah.

Rogue: 00:33:49

Large format stickers have been popping up and taking over our

Rogue: 00:33:54

building names at Wayne State's campus.

Rogue: 00:33:57

I think we're going to see a lot of that type of propaganda play at the moment.

Rogue: 00:34:02

Currently, I don't think, and this is unless we have a huge push of people,

Rogue: 00:34:10

I don't think we're going to see encampments spring back up in the fall.

Rogue: 00:34:15

Like we have throughout the spring semester.

Rogue: 00:34:17

I think we might see we saw in Chicago where there's a fake out on it and

Rogue: 00:34:22

they just drop a bunch of tents and then bounce out on the encampment

Rogue: 00:34:25

and make the cops pick up the stuff.

Rogue: 00:34:28

Which is just wasting the resources of the police and kudos to them.

Rogue: 00:34:33

But that's where I see things moving forward right now.

Rogue: 00:34:38

At least at Wayne State, they've also gone into hostile architecture at this time.

Rogue: 00:34:43

The space where our encampment is, where our encampment was, is

Rogue: 00:34:48

covered in brand new sprinklers.

Rogue: 00:34:51

They have a circle of sprinklers around Spirit Rock, which was

Rogue: 00:34:54

the center of our encampment.

Rogue: 00:34:56

And it's just getting sprayed.

Rogue: 00:34:58

Routinely, we have sprinklers that are hitting light posts or directly in light

Rogue: 00:35:04

posts, no matter which way they move.

Rogue: 00:35:07

And it's just meant to turn the campus into a hostile environment

Rogue: 00:35:10

for anything to spring up again.

Rogue: 00:35:12

And I know that you, Mitch, have been passing through there the past

Rogue: 00:35:15

few days, and it's a very similar setup where there's lots of cameras.

Rogue: 00:35:20

Everywhere particularly at walking level, there's cameras all over

Rogue: 00:35:24

the diag now, as well and lots

Jovanni: 00:35:28

of security roaming.

Jovanni: 00:35:30

Yeah, I think it's been hard to me,

Levi: 00:35:32

hard for me to see the student movement slow down for summer because

Levi: 00:35:40

the killing is not slowing down.

Levi: 00:35:43

And the planes and every other vehicle taking arms to Israel,

Levi: 00:35:51

they're not slowing down.

Levi: 00:35:52

And it's hard to know what to do with that.

Levi: 00:35:55

But of course, it's not just people taking a breather, it's also people

Levi: 00:35:59

that have summer plans, trips abroad, or other kinds of things that are summer

Levi: 00:36:06

jobs, whatever it may be, like, There's a lot of reasons that people are less

Levi: 00:36:12

involved, and of course the encampments took a lot of energy out of a lot of

Levi: 00:36:16

people, so I think that's part of it too.

Levi: 00:36:19

In line with that, I am hoping that our return to campuses is marked

Levi: 00:36:26

by, efficiency and imagination.

Levi: 00:36:30

To imagine what kinds of things we can do to really capture people's hearts and

Levi: 00:36:35

minds and, really, like I said, make the regions uncomfortable in a way that, means

Levi: 00:36:43

less labor for us and less risk as well.

Levi: 00:36:48

And so that's tough.

Levi: 00:36:49

It's always a balance.

Levi: 00:36:51

Yeah I'm not sure about the encampments returning they've definitely, they're

Levi: 00:36:56

definitely concerned about that at the university but of course

Levi: 00:36:59

they can't prepare for everything.

Levi: 00:37:01

And if they wanted to prepare for everything, a good starting place

Levi: 00:37:05

would be to look at their own history as a university look at the movements

Levi: 00:37:10

that they now applaud because a lot of times that's what we turn to, to

Levi: 00:37:14

figure out what to do next, right?

Levi: 00:37:16

The Black Action Movement, it had three waves at the University of Michigan,

Levi: 00:37:20

and at various times, they did just about everything that we've ever Done.

Levi: 00:37:26

yeah, we've got lots of ideas, and the university, we have a, they have a

Levi: 00:37:33

contracted security group that, observes open areas for the university, and

Levi: 00:37:41

we heard from one of them, and That a university administrator told him that

Levi: 00:37:48

they were probably going to downsize staffing heading towards the fall.

Levi: 00:37:53

Because they believed that students are fickle and they'll just choose

Levi: 00:37:57

something else to do something around.

Levi: 00:38:01

And so of course that, I have no idea if that is true.

Levi: 00:38:06

But that really riled me up personally and got me thinking absolutely not.

Levi: 00:38:11

We will come back with a vengeance.

Levi: 00:38:14

Israel isn't stopping anytime soon, and even if they did, the real dangerous

Levi: 00:38:19

thing for the Hasbara at this point is that people, know, students know,

Levi: 00:38:28

young people know, young Jewish people know, Israel will never come back from

Levi: 00:38:33

this propaganda wise, politically.

Levi: 00:38:38

They could stop the killing, they could stop the imprisoning, they could

Levi: 00:38:42

stop, a whole lot of things today.

Levi: 00:38:45

And people would still say, this has to end sooner or later they'll

Levi: 00:38:50

just get back to doing exactly what settler colonial states require.

Levi: 00:38:56

Ethnic cleansing and apartheid, they're just things that you have

Levi: 00:39:00

to do if you want a settler colonial state on somebody else's land.

Levi: 00:39:05

And pretty soon they'll just keep doing those things.

Levi: 00:39:07

And so I'm inspired that people know that people are well educated

Levi: 00:39:13

despite what the news says about Us.

Levi: 00:39:16

and I know that students will continue to come back on this issue.

Levi: 00:39:21

It's not just a since October 7th thing.

Levi: 00:39:24

This is a revitalization and a push and a movement that has been

Levi: 00:39:30

in the United States on college campuses for over 20 years.

Shiloh: 00:39:34

Yeah, hard agree.

Shiloh: 00:39:36

I see you're off mute, Jovanni, what's up?

Jovanni: 00:39:38

Yeah, no, you just mentioned something also about young Jews in

Jovanni: 00:39:43

America one of the biggest contradictions in the official narrative here is

Jovanni: 00:39:50

that much of these protests across the country are led by, by young Jewish

Jovanni: 00:39:57

Americans, or, so that right there fall in his face, the whole notion, the

Jovanni: 00:40:03

whole propaganda of anti Semitism just fall, on the face because much of this

Jovanni: 00:40:08

movements are led by, by young Jews.

Shiloh: 00:40:12

Yeah, I don't, I think I'm with you Levi, piss off a

Shiloh: 00:40:17

young person, and you're going to have a problem for a long time.

Shiloh: 00:40:23

Yeah it's, always been in antiwar movements, the students who have

Shiloh: 00:40:30

who have kept the fire going.

Shiloh: 00:40:32

And I am with you in the hope and imagination that will continue.

Shiloh: 00:40:39

Yeah.

Shiloh: 00:40:40

My, my last question is for you, Levi, in that, I know that you were a dear friend

Shiloh: 00:40:47

of Aaron Bushnell after bonding during Air Force boot camp, and, for many of us

Shiloh: 00:40:56

veterans, Aaron's Act really, catalyzed in our place as far as needing to speak up

Shiloh: 00:41:05

and say something and, and have a voice.

Shiloh: 00:41:09

And I'm, curious around, What do you think Aaron, yeah, would have thought

Shiloh: 00:41:16

about the encampments or, I know that he was very active in, in unhoused

Shiloh: 00:41:24

communities and so what do you picture Aaron's response to student encampments?

Levi: 00:41:32

Yeah, mostly I'm just sad that he can't be a part of it because,

Levi: 00:41:38

there are so many aspects that I think would have meant a lot to him to.

Levi: 00:41:43

Be one of these outside agitators supporting as a community member, and

Levi: 00:41:48

so it is rough to see everything, in some ways, on my more mystical days, I

Levi: 00:41:57

feel like, I feel like I am able to be a continuation of what he would have done.

Levi: 00:42:07

I hope so.

Levi: 00:42:08

I don't think I'm doing as much but, just being able to meet all these people.

Levi: 00:42:14

Yeah, sometimes I think of it as carrying a piece of him and trying to

Levi: 00:42:19

help other people meet him through me.

Levi: 00:42:22

And yeah, at the encampment, the last day we were there, I spoke about

Levi: 00:42:27

him for, quite a while and got to share stories and answer questions.

Levi: 00:42:33

And yeah, it's tough at times to meet people and think this person is so cool.

Levi: 00:42:40

And I met them.

Levi: 00:42:42

Because Aaron will never get to meet them.

Levi: 00:42:45

Cause I just don't, I just don't know how active I'd be involved in

Levi: 00:42:48

this movement if it weren't for him.

Levi: 00:42:50

I always hoped that I would be by now, right?

Levi: 00:42:54

But I just never know.

Levi: 00:42:55

And so whenever I meet somebody I think, I wish I Aaron can meet this person.

Levi: 00:43:00

And, so I just think hopefully I have some piece of him and, that

Levi: 00:43:04

piece of him has met them through Me.

Levi: 00:43:07

yeah, I think that he'd be incredibly inspired and motivated by it.

Levi: 00:43:12

There's a part of me that thinks that, the encampments would have been

Levi: 00:43:19

something to keep him going and keep him feeling like there was movement.

Levi: 00:43:23

So that's hard too.

Levi: 00:43:24

Mostly, I think he'd be right there alongside of us, and

Levi: 00:43:29

that's where we need to be.

Levi: 00:43:31

There's so many people that feel incredibly hopeless, so many people

Levi: 00:43:34

thinking about doing something like he did, and you just have to show people

Levi: 00:43:40

the way, you have to show people here's what we can do to get involved, to make

Levi: 00:43:45

a difference that doesn't involve, ending your own life, that doesn't involve Making

Levi: 00:43:52

sacrifices that you can never take back.

Levi: 00:43:55

You have to pour yourself into it in a way that keeps you alive.

Levi: 00:44:01

And I just hope that people continue to do that, particularly veterans

Levi: 00:44:06

and particularly active duty Members.

Levi: 00:44:09

Aaron once told me that I was organizing a unionizing campaign and I told him

Levi: 00:44:16

something I had done, some letter I think I'd written to the owners, and he

Levi: 00:44:21

was like, wow I really look up to you.

Levi: 00:44:25

You're always standing up to authority in this way.

Levi: 00:44:27

He's I may talk a big game, but I would never do something like that.

Levi: 00:44:31

And.

Levi: 00:44:33

Obviously he did.

Levi: 00:44:34

He stood up to authority in a big way and made, made the Air Force look pretty

Levi: 00:44:40

bad, which is why you're seeing so many people, particularly in the Air Force,

Levi: 00:44:43

come out and say, the Air Force didn't say anything about Aaron Bushnell and I'm

Levi: 00:44:48

going to make them say something about it.

Levi: 00:44:51

I'm going to make this an issue for them.

Levi: 00:44:54

And that is something I'm really proud of.

Levi: 00:44:56

And I know that he would be because it is one thing to leave this world in that

Levi: 00:45:02

way, and it is actually A different thing and at times a more difficult thing to

Levi: 00:45:09

stand up and then face the facts and then face the repression right from

Levi: 00:45:15

the Air Force get the LOCs and get the paperwork that tries to punish you for

Levi: 00:45:21

standing up for what's right, for standing up for, what you vowed to Protect.

Levi: 00:45:26

But yeah, I just hope that people continue to live out his legacy.

Jovanni: 00:45:31

And Aaron, if you're hearing us.

Jovanni: 00:45:34

Appreciate you, brother.

Jovanni: 00:45:36

I think that's a good place for us to wrap up today.

Jovanni: 00:45:41

Levi, Ro, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your

Jovanni: 00:45:45

time with us, your thoughts, your experiences on this terrible event that

Jovanni: 00:45:48

we're all witnessing on Livestream.

Jovanni: 00:45:51

any last comments before we depart?

Levi: 00:45:53

Good to be with you.

Levi: 00:45:54

Thank you.

Rogue: 00:45:55

Thanks for having us out here.

Jovanni: 00:45:58

All right.

Jovanni: 00:45:58

Thank you all for joining us today.

Jovanni: 00:46:00

I hope to see you soon again.

Jovanni: 00:46:02

Take care.

Henri: 00:46:03

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Henri: 00:46:18

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Henri: 00:46:23

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Henri: 00:46:28

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